AIBU regarding PE teacher, DD and her period?

[Tink2007]

My DD is nearly 13. She’s been having periods for 8/9 months. She came on yesterday. She said it was quite heavy and she didn’t feel comfortable doing PE today as she was worried about leaks and it being so heavy just left her feeling uncomfortable.

She’s never missed a PE lesson, she has done PE whilst on her period but it has always coincided with the end so has always been lighter. I said it was fine and I would jot a note in her student diary (as required) especially seeing as it was the first time she has come to me and said “‘Mum, I don’t feel comfortable with this today.”

So imagine my surprise when she came home from school and told me how PE went today. Her actual PE teacher was fine with her not doing PE but said the final decision was with the head of PE.

Now given she didn’t have her PE kit, she had a note and expressed her discomfort with doing PE I wa surprised that the head of PE tried all manner of ways to make her do PE, telling her a period couldn’t be “that bad”, she wouldn’t accept it as a reason again. Then said if she had a spare PE kit she would have made her do it, asked the other PE teacher to make her do it in her school uniform (which the other teacher refused to do) and pulled her by the arm to a standing position to bat a shuttlecock back and forth towards the end of the lesson. She simply couldn’t accept she wasn’t doing it this lesson.

AIBU reasonable for being annoyed? In an age where we are supposed to be empowering young women to have their voices heard, be confident in what they feel comfortable and uncomfortable with and voicing that but yet this teacher seems happy to ignore it and physically pull my DD to her feet.

I should add I do know the teacher in question - she was my PE teacher 22 years ago and it does sound just like her to be honest.

"Teachers limit kids going to the toilet because many kids use it as an excuse to get out of class. If you were a teacher and allowed any child to go to the toilet when they wanted to, you would spend half the lesson with half the class going in and out of the toilets."

Sorry but that is an age old myth. Where I am, a teacher cannot legally deny a child the basic human right of going to the toilet. Children do not take advantage of it. They never did during my years of schooling, or when I worked in a school. That is an excuse some teachers use, but it has been shown to be nothing more than a myth. No children ever asked to go to the toilet unless they needed to, and the teacher would just say '5 minutes' or 'hurry up', something like that. Never has anyone had any issue with children using it to get out of class, notwithstanding that a least one class is on the oval, teachers/staff walking in and out of buildings/corridors etc, so a child wouldn't get away with it.

it's not that, it's more that just because we know things aren't great we just have to accept that instead of challenging or fighting for change, and this idea that because things are worse somewhere else we should just accept it's fine where we are now.

Race to the bottom.

This site has a lot of interesting information, and even the National Union of Teachers believe that: ^"“Having set times for access to the toilet can cause “I’ll go just in case” practices which means the bladder doesn’t get used to holding on until it’s full. Over time, the bladder capacity can reduce, increasing the need to visit the toilet more frequently.

“At the same time, the amount of fluid a child can drink before needing to go to the toilet is reduced. This results in a vicious circle. A child may consciously or unconsciously ration their fluid intake, or avoid drinking altogether, if they fear not being able to go to the toilet when they need to.”

In addition, there is some evidence that older pupils with continence problems are reluctant to notify their school of their need for more frequent toilet visits due to perceived stigma and fear of bullying.

A recent study concluded that young people with continence problems require unrestricted access to private and adequate toilet facilities during the school day.

The study outlines there is a need for inclusive toilet access policies and improved toilet standards in schools, and notes that children with continence issues are at greater risk of not achieving their full academic potential."^

and

^"Children’s rights are protected by the UN Convention on the Rights of Children.

Article 3 specifies that the best interests of the child shall be a primary consideration and that institutions responsible for children’s care shall conform with the standards established by competent authorities, particularly in the areas of safety and health.

In addition, Article 28, governing the provision of education, specifically states that “parties shall take all appropriate measures to ensure that school discipline is administered in a manner consistent with the child’s human dignity and in conformity with the present Convention.”

Blanket Policies Could Leave Schools Open to Litigation

A blanket disciplinary policy of only allowing toilet access at set times or allowing teachers, carte blanche, to refuse toilet access cannot be said to be in the best interests of the child.

There is potential for long term damage to the bladder as well as risk of anxieties of trying to either conform to the policy, or having to inform the school of any continence problems.

It is also directly at odds with the government’s advice to schools on safeguarding issues, which states that safeguarding children’s welfare includes preventing impairment of children’s health or development.

Further, the risk of ‘accidents’ by children of any age, or ‘leaking’ by menstruating pupils seems inconsistent with maintaining the child’s dignity.

Of course schools are quite entitled to set rules and policies regarding access to toilets, and, as previously stated, they have a legal right to take steps to manage classroom disruption.

However blanket restrictions applied to the general school population are in danger of jeopardising the maintenance of children’ best interests, as required by the UN Convention on the Rights of Children, and may leave schools and local authorities vulnerable to the possibility of litigation."^

In other words, a parent at any time, can test the law based on the charter of the UN Rights of the Child.

Oops, forgot the link, sorry. rightsinfo.org/do-school-toilet-policies-breach-pupils-rights/

Children do not take advantage of it. They never did during my years of schooling, or when I worked in a school. That is an excuse some teachers use, but it has been shown to be nothing more than a myth.

Really? Read the current thread about school toilets and read the reports of what some pupils do to the toilets at school. Then come back and say it never happens.

But should an adult have a condition like heavy periods etc, they shouldn't be denied access to a loo at any time either!

How is that workable? You're queuing at the checkout and the operator suddenly goes off to go to the toilet? You and all the other customers just wait patiently for their return, when the mere sight of an elderly person taking 10 extra seconds to get their purse out causes an epidemic of tutting and eye rolling?

Or the train pulls into the station and you all wait while the driver toddles off for the loo?

Maybe have a think about all the people that " serve" you and just how easy it is for them to break off and go to the toilet whenever they want to.

But should an adult have a condition like heavy periods etc, they shouldn't be denied access to a loo at any time either!
Well they are!

^In my work as an educational consultant, I have visited many schools all over the world. I have observed, in both traditional and alternative schools, that children’s basic rights are often ignored. I believe that all human beings, no matter how old they are, must be granted the right to take care of their bodily needs. The child’s body and whole organism are by nature determined to move and learn in specific ways. When we adults refuse to collaborate with the child’s natural development, we create immense, unnecessary suffering. Even seemingly harmless experiences such as occasionally being denied the right to go to the toilet when needed, can leave trauma and health problems that are carried into adulthood.

The “school model” itself will not protect children from abuse. Every single teacher and parent needs to take responsibility for his or her own well-being and for the child’s well-being.

The UN’s Convention on the Rights of the Child (pdf) outlines very basic human rights (e.g., to protect children against child labor and violence and secure their right for education). My list of children’s rights starts from the assumption that children are in an educational environment. I hope this list of rights will raise awareness for the subtle abuse and hidden suffering that occur in schools every day. If we allow children to feel more comfortable in learning environments, we adults will also feel better and happier! Instead of having to worry about being thirsty or feeling emotionally drained, children will consistently have their needs met. Children will gain the opportunity to experience true, authentic learning with joy. This leads to a lifelong love of learning.

All children have the right to do the following:
1.Go to the toilet when needed.
2.Have drinking water available.
3.Move the body when needed.
4.Learn to take care of personal needs.
5.Learn and process emotions through play.
6.Learn through exploration, trial, and error.
7.Make mistakes and not be judged or shamed.
8.Learn at a personal pace.
9.Fully understand a subject before being tested.
10.Not to be tested involuntarily. Instead, share knowledge by free choice, only when ready to receive feedback on learning progress.
11.Not to be punished. Instead, children should be respectfully encouraged to become more self-disciplined.
12.Not to be compared with peers. Instead, acknowledged as an individual student with individual talents, opinions, and characteristics.
13.Not to be judged for being different.^

www.educationrevolution.org/blog/the-rights-of-children-in-school/

Or the train pulls into the station and you all wait while the driver toddles off for the loo?

Um I live rurally. We have loo stops at stations built into the timetable

How is that workable? You're queuing at the checkout and the operator suddenly goes off to go to the toilet? You and all the other customers just wait patiently for their return, when the mere sight of an elderly person taking 10 extra seconds to get their purse out causes an epidemic of tutting and eye rolling?

I’ll tell you how it worked at the shop, call centre and factory i worked at. You realise you need the loo. You grab the floor supervisor. You go to the loo whilst they fill in. It was perfectly workable and rarely used because again there’s a massive difference between and adult managing their time and their conditions and a child.

In other words, a parent at any time, can test the law based on the charter of the UN Rights of the Child.

I suppose it would need to be tested in court first.

Interesting that it all says that schools are entitled to manage disruptive behaviour which is why they restrict toilet access in some cases so again, competing demands.

Read the current thread about school toilets and read the reports of what some pupils do to the toilets at school.

You realise most of that happens before school and during break time, right? Not during class time?

entitled to manage disruptive behaviour which is why they restrict toilet access in some cases so again

As I said, that is an age-old teacher's myth. Disruptive behaviour is generally misbehaving in class, talking etc. Toilet access as proven many many times over the decades does not come into it.

You realise you need the loo. You grab the floor supervisor. You go to the loo whilst they fill in.
Where I work there's 1 manager running the checkouts, answering lights, dealing with price enquiries,exchanging produce, customer forget to get bread can someone get it for them.

Who does that while they get on the till to allow me to go to the toilet? The rest of the queues grind to a halt.

You realise most of that happens before school and during break time, right? Not during class time?

Not the acts of vandalism, having sex, drug taking , bullying that is talked about on that thread. It happened during lesson time.

I'm a PE teacher. In this case YANBU. A note to excuse you from PE because you're on your period is my most hated excuse, it's used far too much with those who hate the subject and just want to get out of it.

However, your DD is clearly genuine. I would have had some discretion here with her, as would my HOD. She does PE all the time, she clearly isn't always trying to get out of it so they should have just given her another role instead for that lesson!

That sounds very poorly managed, Weetabix, though doesn't surprise me

@needanappp

My periods as a teen were either nothing much or horrible dark clotty flooding that meant I often walked around with my knees clamped together to make sure I didn't accidentally have a gush that went everywhere. Could you do PE like that? I couldn't.

Every woman's periods are different. I think in the teacher was wrong and should have shown a bit more understanding!

Who does that while they get on the till to allow me to go to the toilet? The rest of the queues grind to a halt

As River said it isn’t a race to the bottom.

I’m still waiting for a valid reason as to why “adult in certain employment can’t access loo immediately” is comparable to children going to the loo at school.

Disruptive behaviour is generally misbehaving in class, talking etc. Toilet access as proven many many times over the decades does not come into it.

So the teacher how described how students walked out of class and on the way to the toilet banged on every classroom door, or another describing a student slamming through the door and declaring to the class that they'd " been for a piss" or another detailing how a child ripped all of the sinks off the wall - that wasn't disruptive behaviour linked to toilet access? Because it doesn't happen?

PE is not an optional lesson

it should be imo. PE is absolutely awful, badly conducted and hated by most females.

I wonder why that is... oh yes because during this lesson they're generally treated like shit.

It seems to be the only lesson where your competency to complete an activity is not taken into account.

Fitness is not one size fits all, school tries to make it like that and THAT Is why so many girls don't want to do it.

I’m still waiting for a valid reason as to why “adult in certain employment can’t access loo immediately” is comparable to children going to the loo at school.

Well, because children grow into adults, who go to work. We have 16 year olds working part time. They are at school. So if they are used to just getting up and going anytime they want how do they manage at work?

So if they are used to just getting up and going anytime they want how do they manage at work?

well not all jobs are the same! I have never ever had a job where I have had to only go to the toilet at breaktime. Yes I appreciate some people do, however if you feel that strongly about it then don't do a job where that's the case!

Yes I appreciate some people do, however if you feel that strongly about it then don't do a job where that's the case!
Well it isn't that easy to just find another job is it and someone still has to do the job even if it isn't me. So regardless of whether it's me or another employee the fact remains that in plenty of jobs employees don't have unrestricted access to the toilet and that isn't a breach of human rights.

Well, because children grow into adults, who go to work. We have 16 year olds working part time. They are at school. So if they are used to just getting up and going anytime they want how do they manage at work?

Because - and here’s a controversial thought - they grow, and mature and understand different situations require different behaviour.

I went to a secondary school with an open door policy. I also understood that being an adult was different. It wasn’t difficult.

I never said it was a breach of human rights. I just replied to your comment about what are they supposed to do when they go to work... well they might never have that problem.

Its easier to get a "first job" ie straight from school that you actually like, because then you're not in the vicious circle of "ive only ever worked in retail therefore im stuck in retail"