DP wants a prenup!

[HappyHattie]

I’ve taken legal advice so fully understand how they do/don’t work- not looking for technical advice just opinions on whether IABU??

I am 27 DP is 32 - he earns 3x my salary. (mine is respectable and I’ve just completed a masters so will increase).

DP owned his home with about £150k of equity before we met. (He paid top end of the asking price so has not gained value and may lose a bit post Brexit)

Anyway we’re financially merged- joint accounts- I’ve never held anything back from him- including my £7k of savings when I moved in. (I know I still don’t match his income but still)

He did mention getting something in writing to protect his £150k much earlier in the relationship - fine, I was happy with that- my sibling has one as he had a large inheritance- I’ve always been independent!

But now we’re actually getting married - my £7k of savings has been swallowed up, I’m not yet named on the mortgage and we’re both wanting to start a family post wedding (2-3 kids).

The plan is I’ll drop down to PT - only today whilst talking it through with a solicitor did I realise how vulnerable I’ll be leaving myself!

I don’t want to have small children and work FT (my career is demanding and DP whilst eager to help is very much consumed by his career and often works away for short periods) I work with so many women who try to juggle this and their lives look miserable! I’d rather not have children than live like that!

So this evening I’ve been really deflated- feeling like I’m getting the shit end of the stick really - I’m not after his money (not at all) but equally I don’t really want to be drafting up a 14 page prenup which even the solicitor said ‘is likely to get quite complicated’

It also seems like it’s going to escalate from ‘protecting the £150k’ to also including inheritance, pensions, earnings...etc.

I didn’t sign up for not being a ‘team’ if I wanted to build a financial future alone - I wouldn’t be getting married.

I’m probably ABU 😞 but would appreciate some opinions!

(DP is a wonderful guy - honestly 10/10 on everything else but he had a really bad experience as a teen when he lost his parent and their very recent new spouse tried to take everything- think this has made him overly cautious)

Another thought, if the value of the house falls, then his equity is no longer £150K.

My advice: the prenup need not be a question of yes or no to some proposal set out by him, it should give you what you want. You have a say. When you sign, you should be thinking, "this is fair, I wouldn't want any more this."

The first think I would recommend is looking again at his attempt to exclude pensions. Pensions are just a form of saving, at his discretion he could stash as much of his savings as he likes in there, everything except the equity in the house. So, assuming you will need to be provided for, that provision should take precdence over his pension.

While it's natural for him to start off thinking about this in terms of protecting his savings and earnings, I suggest that you and he both temporarily put that aside and come up with a definition of what you should have in the event of divorce.

Also, to what extents it his idea that you be part-time? If it's really his preference, he'd be happy to pay you a salary for the job you do in the home out of which you can build up your own savings. Negotiate a salary that leaves you thinking you've got a good deal. If you can't, it wasn't that he was trying to take advantage of you, it's just that you've discovered in advance that the value to him of you being at home was not as big as you thought it was.

When DH and I got married I owned a property with £250k equity. It never crossed my mind to get a pre nup to "protect" that. That is now our joint asset.

Your DP sounds overly invested in money and the fact he dares to talk about a pre nup when he earns 3x what you earn and then expects you to half your earning potential in order to raise his kids "(2-3)" is quite frankly absolutely disgusting. You need to point out to him that if he wants everything done "fairly" you should both work part time to raise the children and see his face drop then. What a tool.

He's not optimistic if he wants a prenup
I disagree with this. He just doesn't want to get screwed over for his £150k right??? Surely, everything else though OP, income, career sacrifice for kids on your part, appreciating asset of house, name on mortgage etc ought to be 50/50? That's what marriage is...or should be...50/50. Get your £7k ring fenced by the way. I'd bow out of this marriage if he's wanting more than the £150k....you could also ask for a clause to share the £150k after 20 years of marriage, because it's reasonable to assume after that period that you're not just after a quick buck out of him.

It does appear to favour only him. Definitely get your own solicitor chosen by you, maybe get advice from a friend not his family. I would thread very carefully OP.

Whilst you are going to be giving up your career and his thrives you are going to be left in a very vulnerable position. Just be careful what you sign - if anything.

I’m reading every comment and it’s really helpful - so thanks everyone

• to clarify- I AM NOT a ‘luxury’ lifestyle woman. I ‘treat’ myself with a mns two dine in for £10 and buy all my clothes in the high street sales! I splurged (for my birthday) on one £50 scarf id been starring at in a shop window for almost a month!

He’s not concerned I’m going to spend frivolously!

Well a prenup cuts both ways, doesnt it? You can also use it to stipulate how much he is going to pay you for childcare and for taking care of the home. And tgat money you put in a savings plan under your own name.

You both have solid reasons for expecting life to go where you prefer: he doesn't want to change jobs as he's paid well and you own property there. You don't want to be a commuting full time worker with full time child responsibilities too.

Apart from this blind spot you say hes lovely. Maybe he hasn't really thought it through. the prenup sounds as if it's based on your circumstances now, rather than what may apply in 5/10 years once you've had children and effectively scuppered your career.

I'd sit down and go through some scenarios with him:

1. You get married with a prenup and 18 months later you decide to split up. He keeps the house, you've finished your masters and have a decent job. You leave with 50% of what's in the savings account and what you have in your own pension and start again. Fair enough.
2. You have a baby really quickly after marriage, with a prenup, and immediately your earning potential is limited because you've chosen to go PT and not really made the most of the career opportunities afforded to you by your masters. You have a good life, baby(ies) well looked after, etc. You split up after 5 years. You have 2 young children, no pension and a part time OK job but not high flying. He keeps the house and there isn't much in the savings because of the children and your lower earnings but you take your 50% and you go into rented accommodation with the children: you can't move closer to your work and you can't afford the childcare to go back full time.
3. You have a happy marriage for 30 years. Your career has stagnated and you are now working full time again but in an administrative role of some kind which does not have scope for you to increase it. In the mean time you have raised your children and managed the home and you've been a pretty good team. There's money in the savings and the house has increased in value. He's kept his pension up and so have you but yours is a fraction of his because of the maternity years and the PT years and the fact that you never got back into graduate employment. So basically you have invested your life in the relationship and he has invested more money. On his 60th birthday he tells you that things aren't how they used to be and he's leaving you. He gets the house. You go into a rented house (or if you are lucky buy a small one) alone and carry on working until you retire to support yourself while he takes early retirement with his massive pension to sail round the world with his secretary.
4. You are married for 10 years with 2 kids in primary school and you are working part time. You realize that you don't love each other any more but you are trapped because there are no savings (DC do that) and if you leave you'll have nowhere to live. But he doesn't love you either so you are forced to go, small DC in tow.

His prenup works for scenario 1. One of the other scenarios is more likely and if he loves you now he should consider these scenarios too. Ringfence the 150K and where his pension was where you met but anything beyond that is completely unreasonable as you are the one being financially disadvantaged by having children.

I may be misreading this but that seems to stink of the women giving up her career to care for the family is not worth or contributing anything of value

I'm talking in relation to marriage in general, not necessarily in a SAHP situation, so no, did not mean to imply that.

In fact see my later post, I recommend that a SAHP salary be negotiated in advance, that will make it transparent to both parties what the value of such a contributions is. (They may not both like the answer, but it will stop one or the other feeling conned when an answer they don't like is later enforced by divorce law.)

Some of the "salary" could consist of a preferential entitlement to marital assets, if there isn't enough money to pay it in cash.

I understand why major rich people have prenups etc but I wouldn’t marry average joe if he wanted a prenup. Like ppl have said marriage is a partnership and if it sadly ends any assets earned in that marriage should be split equally.
It’s a risk you take when you marry someone, I own my own home and If I marry I know I’m risking loosing half of that property but that’s the gamble you take.

@HappyHattie

Please could I clarify something (sorry if this is answered elsewhere)?

You say he wants to protect his £150k equity in the house.

Let's say you marry this summer and DC1 is born in Summer 2021.

If he wants to protect his £150k in the house (and let's assume it doesn't rise in value in the next 18 months) what would you get? Where would you live?

I think your recent updates OP tell us a lot about you. You've clearly been hurt in the past and are now trying to making a go of it with the first "nice bloke" who's come along, who you joke about running off with his secretary. He's not that nice though is he? He's made a poor investment on a house that he's desperate to protect, he's used your savings, he's fine with you giving up your career to have kids, he won't move location to help your career. I think you need to ask what he's compromising on?

Also people ask married couples if their babies were planned and having the same surname isn't the only way to be a family unit. It's 2019, not 1959.

I agree with others who say that is he is that protective about his finances you will absolutely need to be protective of yours. This means putting your career first, ensuring you have your own bank account including own savings and no dropping to part-time work.

Otherwise you will be in a vulnerable position and in a world of pain.

He is high earner so.you can between you afford nanny to.be with your 3 children whether you work full or part time
Don't cut back on your career unless it s what you want to.do.
Suggest to him that when you have dc you intend to get full.time nanny and tell.him.costs of that..eg 500 per week plus. it won't be an issue between both your salaries whether you full or part time .
Put that plan in the prenup
Why have you invested 7 k in a house when you are not on the mortgage ?

If you have this prenup then you may as well not get married. Marriage is about binding your assets together, not about surnames and avoiding instrusive questions.

DP and I have been not married for 28 years. When we got together, he had some debt, I had some savings. I had a better paid career. We pooled our money, bought a house. I stayed at home, looked after the kids. He inherited a big chunk of money and used it all to pay off the joint house. He set up a business, gave me 50% of the shares (the accountant suggested 49% but DP thought that was insulting to me).

Basically we have always just pooled everything, without the benefit of a marriage contract; up until now we have never seen any need for one.
But we have decided to bite the bullet and get married for inheritance tax purposes.

I won't be changing my name though. And no one has ever said anything rude about our kids not being planned.

With over 50% of marriages ending in divorce I wouldn't marry without a prenup. But i would make sure it was clear and fair with various what if scenarios catered for.
When you marry you think the sun shines out of that person's backside; I know no-one who has felt like that at the point of divorcing them.

Hi OP, I had a meeting with a solicitor prior to my marriage because DH already owned property and I was not named on mortgage (had lower credit rating than DH so it made sense not to add me). DH also the higher earner and and DH and I BOTH wanted to know how to be best protected as individuals and a couple, if anything awful should happen to either of us, in the event of children, and as a precaution / academic question in the event of divorce.

I found a solicitor (female, specialist in this) myself, and arranged a free consultation which was incredibly helpful.

I think that you should empower yourself in this situation as right now you are sounding like it is all coming from his interests and not yours. He is even suggesting the solicitor. Go and see a solicitor by yourself, and talk about your interests, in addition to his. Find out the facts about your rights and interests, now and once married. (Not sure if you have a wedding date?)

In my case, it became clear that once married I have plenty of rights over the property in various scary circumstances, and the law provides protection for wives and especially when children come into the equation. We chose not to draft any formal agreement because we felt the law provided all the protection we felt we needed.

The point is, you are not going to get the proper facts without sitting down with a solicitor, and preferably one with an interest in women's rights, and preferably by yourself in the first instance.

I would have no problem with a prenup in certain situations. For example if one person had a specific family inheritance or family property they wanted to protect. However committed you are yo a marriage there's a chance it will fail.

However no way would I be marrying and having kids with a man who wasn't prepared to share resources long term. He sounds like he expects you to take all the risk.

So the first thing you have to remember is that a prenup is not legally binding in English law. However this does not mean that it is not taken into consideration in the event you divorce. The second thing you have to remember is that a good prenup protects both parties. For example. In your position I would insist on a clause that stipulates that you DP will pay a ‘top up’ on your salary if it is less than you projected income growth because you took on more caring responsibilities for your children. Just as an example. Prenups are a fairly new thing in Britain so most solicitors aren’t particularly experienced in drafting them. A prenup is a very good idea but just male sure you choose a solicitors who specialises in them.

The biggest problem here is you wantint go give up work or go part time. If you worked full time you could end up as I did with babies and toddlers - ultimatly earning 10x my other half and theh you would be laughing all the way to bank under the pre up as he wouldn't get a penny of your oodles of cash.
So it is your sexist decision to put your career second and stay at home or only work part time which is the issue. Does your mother not work? Is the family ethos that men keep women?

Why not just agree you will both work fullt ime, you will just take a month or two off when the baby comes and the leave should be shared if it is longer and he has to take the time off, that heunderstakes to collect the babies from nursery 2 days one week and 3 the next or finds and hires and manages and organises someone else to do so if he is working late but it would not be your responsibility?

she is enabling the man to have a family/DCandcontinue with his career, increase his earning potential and build his retirement fund.

To be fair, she earns a third of what he does whilst they aren't married and don't have children. She has a less successful career, financially speaking. He has a more successful career, financially speaking which she has not enabled by sacrifice. But (pre nup aside) if they have children and then split she will likely get 50%+ of the assets which she probably wouldn't have been able to accrue herself if she remained single. So, yes, she would "gain" in this position.

I know I'm a cynic but I'm a tad scathing about the idea that the lower earning partner / primary parent has sacrificed a career/ enabled their partner's earning power.

I earn a lot more than my husband but he hasn't enabled that or sacrificed anything - he works FT himself and we share all child rearing and household stuff. We don't have a pre nup so if we split (not planning to, haha) he'd probably get half of everything but he wouldn't have "earned" it. He'd end up richer than if he'd stayed single earning his modest salary.

I wouldn't marry someone like this. I'm afraid I agree with Wallsbangers assessment of him. This man is going to be your lifelong partner and the father of your children. He's not trusting. He's not generous. He's not optimistic. Why bother?

However, if you do really love him and think he's justified in being cautious I would follow GahWhatever's excellent advice.

I came into my marriage with my own property i didnt even dream of a prenup.

I left my marriage with nothing. I lost everything and life was substantially harder for both myself and my kids as a result.

The value of "resolving" tge financial side of a divorce while you still love and care for each other really shouldn't be undervalued.

I totally get his desire for a prenup. If prenups were legal i might one day consider marrying again.

The prenup wouldnt put me off marriage (aslong as i ensured it was written to my benifit as well) but you lack of communication over money generally is a massive concern.

Does he know you are living off your savings to maintain your joint standard of living?
What is his income and savings? What is the value of his pension contributions and yours?

Without full disclosure no judge will take a prenup into account. But tbh without this information your not really acting as a sustainable partnership anyway.

Theres red flags all over this. But the prenup is not one.

I wouldn’t marry this man. I got married to DH1 aged 28 been together 5 years, he put me on the mortgage of his flat about 3 years in (already owned with his brother who I bought out) and I paid half. We got divorced 18 months later with no solicitors involved, split the £150k equity in half and moved on. That was over 10 years ago, we were reasonable, we had no kids so I didn’t go after his pension etc. He had also had a very complicated situation with his parents, divorce, remarriages, bankruptcies etc. I wouldn’t marry this guy, he doesn’t value you, or love you if he is that worried about £150k. Move on while you still can.

I totally disagree with those who suggest that OP can get around the prenup by putting her own terms in as noone knows what the future will bring. For example, he may agree now that if she goes part time he will "pay" a wage but when the time comes he may just state that she should work full time if she wants to while doing nothing to help facilitate that (e.g. by doing his fair share of taking parental leave, picking and dropping off from childcare, mental load etc) and basically making it impossible.
There really is no way around this apart from refusing to do a prenup or at least making sure it is invalid after having children.