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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to say that some people just cannot work full time or even at all?

349 replies

thebeesknees123 · 16/01/2019 11:52

This does seem to be an age old discussion among parents, particularly among women with young children.

I can think of various reasons why people can't work:

Just had a baby and breastfeeding
Mental or physical health conditions
Caring responsibilities - e.g. elderly relative
The money does not cover childcare/commute expenses

Personally, I do work (30 hours per week) but I am lucky in that it is shifts around the school so I don't have childcare costs. I would never slate someone who couldn't find something suitable for their needs or pressure them to take something that is going to cause them undue stress because they are put in a position where they are forced to be unreliable, which, frankly, I would be if I were forced to work 9 to 5.

OP posts:
ILikTheBred · 16/01/2019 14:44

21st century life sucks sometimes, and from a work perspective I think it’s gotten particularly bad with the advent of the likes of linkedin and internet articles (that ‘doer’ ad someone linked to above is a perfect example) which fetishize work as being the be all and end all and bear no resemblance to the reality of most jobs.

Women have it particularly bad - society (and particularly here on mumsnet) expects you to work as if you don’t have children, and if parent as if you don’t work. It’s a no-win situation.

Ultimately who gives a crap whether other people work or don’t work. It’s up to them to make that decision for themselves.

brookshelley · 16/01/2019 14:46

You love your job but you still want to be paid for doing it! And if it pays £0 then you won’t do it.

Why would anyone provide a service for free? Doesn’t mean you don’t love it. That’s like saying Ronaldo doesn’t love football because he’s paid for it Hmm

newnameforthis7 · 16/01/2019 14:46

NC as I don't want this linking to my other posts.

I was diagnosed with a chronic illness back in 2005 (aged 42 at the time,) and I struggled badly with the pain, and ended up by 2007 on a cocktail of pills to douse the pain.

Long story short, I went to the doctors and told them I was struggling with the pain and she could see physically that it was bad. She took pity on me and wrote me off on sick for 3 months (I didn't ask her to.) Then at the end of the 3 months, my workplace was shedding some staff, and I was one who was laid off.

I went to the job centre and they helped me look for a new job, but because of my condition I really struggled. So the job centre (after 3 months of no luck!) suggested I apply for incapacity benefit.

So by 2008 (aged 45) I went on to this benefit and also applied for DLA. Which I got.

10 years on I am still on it, I still have my condition, and I am on the strongest meds possible for it, and they make me quite tired some days, and give me bad headaches some days too. (And at least 2 or 3 migraines a month.)

I am in some degree of pain most days, and suffer bad pain about a third of the time. I find it hard to plan anything or promise anyone anything, and can be quite unreliable, because I never know how I am going to be that day - or week. (And obviously, holding down a job is very difficult.)

So whilst I look OK (to most people) and do have days when I function OK, and actually go out in the car, (not far as I can't drive more than 10 miles,) and I do light gardening (planting seeds, and bedding plants, and pulling up very small weeds,) there is no WAY I could work now.

I have been off far too long, my conditions fluctuates, the tabs make me tired, and they cause headaches. In addition, I would just be too unreliable because of my chronic illness.

As I said though, to outsiders I look OK, and I also never complain about the pain, and I certainly never tell anyone that I am on sickness benefits.

I have to say also that if the condition was suddenly cured, and I was much better, I would genuinely struggle to go back to work now. My condition, pain, and side effects aside, I actually enjoy not having to go to work. I worked for almost 30 years (before going on disability benefits,) and I have to say, I very rarely enjoyed any job. (Always basic admin or factory work or shop work, as I have very few qualifications and left school at 16.) I was often either bullied, ridiculed, or ignored.

As a few people have said, most people go to work for the money, and would never go if they won the lottery or got a big inheritance or whatever.

I know about TEN people around my age - 45 to 55 who know I don't work, (I just tell them I am a homemaker,) and they ALL envy me, they wish they could finish work, and they wonder how I do it. I don't know ANYONE who loves their job. I am sure some people DO, but I just don't know any.

I actually know two 24 y.o young women right now, who have only been in the workplace 2-3 years since leaving uni, and they HATE it, and don't know how they are going to do it for 50 years! One even mentioned getting pregnant/having a couple of kids when she is 26-27, and plans to have a decade off work! 2 years she has worked, that's all - in a VERY cushy (well-paid at £33K a year) job for the council, and she is already planning a decade off as she hates work so much!

I think working full time in a minimum pay 'fixed hours' is soul destroying tbh, and although I don't condone it, it's understandable why people do their best to not do it, whether they stay on benefits, become a SAHM, or go part time.

OR as a few people have said, working for yourself, running your own little business, being an actor, writer, artist, sculptor, or something similar would be OK for some people, but the reality is, (sadly,) that it's not possible for many people, because they can't earn the money they need to live.

Before anyone says anything btw, I know people HAVE to work or there would be no money in the system to support anyone, but it doesn't change the fact that most people wouldn't work (especially fixed hours) for someone else, if they didn't HAVE to...

Finally, some half a century a go (and beyond,) it was perfectly acceptable for women to be SAHMs/homemakers, even when the kids left home. Many women NEVER went into paid employment. Now it's like you're some kind of failure in life if you don't have a great career, or at least a full time job. Problem is, many women who DO work, still do most of the wifework and childcare anyway. No wonder so many women end up frazzled and depressed!

As I said, I worked last at 45, and was there (all the time) for my kids from when they were 10-11 y.o, and they both said they LOVE me being at home all the time. I have to say I loved being there for them too.

I do have to say that I disagree that working women love their job/career more than their children. I think that is unfair and a bit cruel sorry.... Sad

flirtygirl · 16/01/2019 14:46

Islands81 I'm almost in the same situation.

I worked for years and at one time 4 jobs to get house deposit together. I also had dd who was diagnosed with asd at 3. When she was 6 I was broken, I had a nervous breakdown. My mum had to care for her.

I was getting back on track when i met my stbexh and got married. I then had my 2nd dd. Home ed and caring for my daughters needs is all I could do for a long time. I didn't see for 10 years that my husband was seriously abusive.

I'm still getting free and in the process of moving. When married no one really asked me when I was going back to work but getting divorced, everyone assumes I will.

How will I settle my asd dd into a new area 100m away where we know no one, If I'm at work? And my traumatised 9yo who my abusive husband manipulates and I'm still working with daily? I home ed and I don't want to give that up.

Why do people expect me with everything on my plate to be able to work? The stress of divorce, moving, caring, home ed, helping my mum when I can and keeping my mental health in check (depression and ocd ) is my current full time job.

I receive carers allowance which is a pittance for being a carer. My daughter needs me less in some ways and more in other ways. She has a one to one ta and is at college but that ends in June and she back full-time with me. Everything needs explaining and everything we do needs a debrief, it's mentally tiring. She has never slept well and has medication since she was 6, which helps but is not a golden pill. I'm on sleeping pills as my body clock is broken after years of both kids not sleeping.

How, why would I get a job? Who will look after the dd who's 20 soon but can't be left for long times alone or dd9 who's never been to school, doesn't want to go to school and who enjoys and thrives in home ed?

Who will help all 3 of us, since we do need to address the elephant in the room when moved that my abusive marriage has caused us all emotional problems?

I'm educated and intelligent (law degree) but I need a job that works around all of this. Or I need to stop being asked when am I going back to work.

Ive suffered a nervous breakdown, really awful antenatal and post natal depression, life limiting ocd and I've had therapy and battled back to be a good mum, involved in home ed and strong enough to leave my abusive husband.

I will do something when I'm mentally able to and when I have less on my plate. But it will have to be on my terms as I'm all my children have and they need me to be mentally well.

NopSlide · 16/01/2019 14:47

I love mine fiercely but frankly found small children and housework boring as feck...

I find small children boring as feck and I don't hardly bother with housework but it doesn't mean there are magically part time jobs that are interesting enough to make it worth my while. Boring and tedious though young kids are it seems better to build a relationship with now than never get to see them. They go to bed at 7. If I had a full time job when exactly would I get to spend any time with them? Of course there is the weekend but if I had a full time job I'd probably be rushed off my feet getting errands done on the weekend so I wouldn't have much chance to connect with the kids then either.

CosmicComet · 16/01/2019 14:48

Why would anyone provide a service for free?

That is exactly my point! No matter how much you love your job, you won’t do it for free. And that’s the situation many women find themselves in when salary = childcare. They’d basically be doing their job for free so they don’t bother.

snurguzelly · 16/01/2019 14:49

Work should completely be optional.

Those who find work which fits around their commitments should do so and those who have "other reasons" should #livetheirbestlife with money syphoned off from the privileged (working) elite to subsidise them. It's the only equitable way.

" I would never slate someone who couldn't find something suitable for their needs or pressure them to take something that is going to cause them undue stress"

I fucking would. Lazy bastards. Since when did thin-skinned cucks get to avoid "stress"? In case anxiety is triggered? Jesus wept.

CosmicComet · 16/01/2019 14:52

funny the husbands salary never gets factored into that calculation

Basic maths: Me at home vs Me at work. Which provides the most money?

The husbands salary isn’t factored in because his salary isn’t being weighed against childcare in a cost benefit analysis.

cestlavielife · 16/01/2019 14:53

.. How has working benefited Mum A? Assuming she spent her wages on childcare and didn’t make a profit, she’s no better off for having worked
...

If a regular PAYE contract then Mum A has had NI paid and money gone to a pension from employer and employee contributions. . She has had paid holidays. Paid maternity leave potentially . Staff discounts on shopping. Potentially training and opportunities to advance. So Mum A benefits long term .
Possibly mum A has benefited socially or emotionally from going out to work depending on employer and the work environment.

HappyAndYouKnowItGlugTheWine · 16/01/2019 14:53

I work 33 hours a week (well let's be honest it's far more than that with the extra time I put in at home etc.) and love my job. I trained for years to get where I am and whilst I adore the absolute bones off my DC I need to work for my own sense of self. Yes, work pays the bills so there's that obvious benefit, but personally for me I need to adult interaction and chance to be challenged in my career and I thrive off of it. I was happy coming back to work after 14 months off for maternity leave... I actually felt like I rediscovered a vital part of myself in doing so that I think I lost a bit during the home-based baby days! I work for a big company but a lot of employers are jumping on the flexible bandwagon these days too, so there is far more flexibility to work than ever before - I regularly work from home for example, which means I get a few hours back that I would usually spend sat in traffic on my commute, which I can then spend with DC. Equally, I never feel that I can't take days off when DC is sick or has an appointment for example - I could either just be off that day or make up some hours later at home on my laptop.

I disagree entirely with suggestions that this means I love my child any less than a SAHM - in fact, that assertion is disgustingly ignorant. DC has come on leaps and bounds at nursery - it has really been the making of him. I'd certainly put him in nursery even if I wasn't working as I believe its important for his development - every child is different though.

NopSlide · 16/01/2019 14:53

funny the husbands salary never gets factored into that calculation

Why would it? Our money is family money.

thebeesknees123 · 16/01/2019 14:53

Perhaps you are lucky enough not to have tricky circumstances. See the list in my op. Or you have a great support network . It is definitely not a level playing field

OP posts:
theredjellybean · 16/01/2019 14:53

The other point that has not been discussed as far as I can see is whether there is or shoukd be some obligation to work if you have been educated by the state in some vocational area.
I had my medical degree funded back in the day.. Cost about 150k to train a doctor.. Is it reasonable that society expects some return on this investment and how does that stack up with the thought no one would work if they didn't have to? "I dont hVe to work financially, never have had to... I could just have had my education and then never practised.. Is that fair or reasonable

NopSlide · 16/01/2019 14:54

If a regular PAYE contract then Mum A has had NI paid and money gone to a pension from employer and employee contributions

You get that anyway through child benefit.

Yulebealrite · 16/01/2019 14:54

The main advantage of working when the kids are still young is to give oneself the chance to get up the ladder.

It's very short sighted to not be able to see that many jobs don't have a career ladder.

CosmicComet · 16/01/2019 14:55

I do have to say that I disagree that working women love their job/career more than their children

Wish people would stop misinterpreting my post! Nobody loves their job more than their kids. That’s why money is the only reason for going to work. If you’re not getting any money then you’ll always choose to be with your kids instead of working for nothing. Which is why some people don’t work.

Yulebealrite · 16/01/2019 14:56

chance to be challenged in my career and I thrive off of it.

Again is it hard to understand not all jobs provide this?

NopSlide · 16/01/2019 14:57

Wish people would stop misinterpreting my post! Nobody loves their job more than their kids. That’s why money is the only reason for going to work. If you’re not getting any money then you’ll always choose to be with your kids instead of working for nothing. Which is why some people don’t work.

If someone gave me a stimulating job for nothing but childcare 20 hours a week then I would jump at the opportunity.
It's the 40hrs+ and commute where you basically never see the kids that I am not up for.

cestlavielife · 16/01/2019 15:02

Half a century ago being a housewife was drudge work and many didn't have washing machines etc
No online shopping or.food.deliveries...

CosmicComet · 16/01/2019 15:02

Mum A has had NI paid and money gone to a pension. She has had paid holidays. Staff discounts on shopping. Potentially training and opportunities to advance.

You get NI etc paid for you by Child Benefit if you SAH. Not all jobs offer discounts or training. In my last job I had to pay for my own training if I wanted to continue working.

Possibly mum A has benefited socially or emotionally

That’s true. But most people can’t afford to work just for fulfilment. They need to earn money as well. If your salary doesn’t cover childcare etc then you can’t realistically work at a financial loss just for fulfilment.

RomanyRoots · 16/01/2019 15:06

I can't understand this ladder, that we are all supposed to be climbing.
I'd find that so boring.
It's each to their own I guess.
For me giving my dc opportunities I wouldn't be able to if I worked, was the deciding factor.
I didn't want them to play second fiddle to a career or job, as kids do when both parents work.
There was no chance of me fitting in a job around the freedom and opportunities I wanted for my family.

CosmicComet · 16/01/2019 15:08

I had my medical degree funded back in the day.. Cost about 150k to train a doctor.. Is it reasonable that society expects some return on this investment

If you’re a doctor then you can afford to work as your salary will easily exceed childcare and you’ll benefit from working. A lot of the time those who don’t work can’t afford to.

A better question would be: My teacher training was funded but my job is so poorly paid that I’d earn £0 after childcare costs. Should society expect a return on the investment considering I’ll actually be out of pocket by working?

cestlavielife · 16/01/2019 15:08

A workplace pension will give more long term than the basic NI and state pension gained from.vlaiming child benefit alone and no.workplace pension.
If you earn more than 6032 a year your employer has to put money in too. You get contribution from govt as tax relief

CosmicComet · 16/01/2019 15:10

A workplace pension will give more long term than the basic NI and state pension

I’m in my 40s and would be starting from scratch. My job would be low paid. By the time I retire I won’t have paid enough in to get a worthwhile pension so why bother?

Shitmewithyourrhythmstick · 16/01/2019 15:13

At a minimum wage level benefits factor in as an alternative to working so that’s not my focus in this discussion.

Not necessarily they don't. It's perfectly possible for one partner to only be able to command a low wage, but the other to earn enough to mean top up benefits will do no such thing. The tax credit thresholds for one and two children are not particularly high. It's not much above national median wage for two children and well below it for one. It would be a mistake not to include such situations in the discussion.

In terms of low paid women working to cover only childcare, while there are some workers on NMW or thereabouts who may be able to progress and earn more by sticking with their work, they don't and can't all. And of course for those in this position who have young children, the potential advantages of working are way lower.

In the example given, Mum A is future proofing herself somewhat in that if her partner drops dead or fucks off, even an NMW job is some money coming in while she waits for her UC claim. That's a point that needs to be made. Many of the other claims are over egging the pudding though, for example the idea that the tiny minimum contributions into pensions for someone who works FT NMW are going to do much in old age is fanciful.

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