Vogue Williams pumping and dumping

[honorariam]

I thought this was an outdated practise yet Vogue insisted on her new reality tv show that she had to pump and dump her milk as she'd been out having a few drinks.

AIBU to think that it's irresponsible for Channel 4 to show this sort of nonsense?

I think with my first born if I Had drunk a fair bit i’d still get rid of the milk. Even if I didn’t need to, there would be a tiny voice in my head saying ‘your giving your baby alcohol’ however second time round maybe I’d be more relaxed and not bother. Its her first baby, first night out, baby was six weeks old, she is probably being overly cautious which I think we all are as parents, especially first time around. I just don’t agree that it was irresponsible and giving out the wrong message. If anything, as pps have said, the stronger message was ‘look how you can still go out and have a drink and time away from the baby and continue bf’ing’ rather than what you took from it. just from my experience bf’ing the advice I was always given was if you have a drink, wait a few hours, or pump and throw it away. So maybe it’s a wider problem and it’s actually about the advice we get from health professionals rather than a 15 second clip On a random tv show.

Biologifemini the point is that alcohol leaves your milk as soon as it leaves your blood so there is no point to pumping and dumping purely for the purpose of ridding your milk from alcohol as it doesn’t work like that. I think the op is cross that this woman might be promoting this practice as though it will rid b/milk of alcohol when it makes no difference.

Mintychoc1 there’s no need to be so holier than thou. It’s impossible for b/milk to contain more than 0.5% alcohol (because the mother would be dead if her blood level was that). That’s about the same as fresh orange juice or ‘alcohol free’ beer. Obviously an infants blood level would be many times smaller than this even if they drank breast milk which was from a mother who had alcohol poisoning. Basically there is absolutely no need for mothers who drink moderately to worry about breastfeeding. It makes me snort that the nhs advice is to have only 2 drinks whilst b/feeding yet doctors are happy to prescribe ranitidine for reflux to newborns which contains about 8% alcohol. I can guarantee that if it were men who breast fed they base their advice on scientific fact.

The alcohol leaves breast milk at the same rate it leaves the blood. You can't just drain off the milk with alcohol content

We have no idea how many drinks she had, when she was next planning to breastfeed, how engorged she was.

If I had a 3 wines and knew I didn't want my baby drinking milk with alcohol in it, I would wait until the alcohol had gone from by bloodstream before breastfeeding. So what do I do if I'm engorged? Pump to feel more comfortable. What do I do with that milk? I don't have a fridge and bottles because I'm out so I get rid of the milk.

I don't have any DC but it seems perfectly logical to me.

Has anyone else ever read this........

Sorry a crude copy and paste but the experiment itself is very interesting

Jack Newman is a fairly significant medical figure who pioneers breastfeeding as I understand.

The following is from a blog by a mother who tested her milk for alcohol. Not one of those useless kits that you can buy at various stores, but tested at a toxicology laboratory. I will copy from her blog the method she used and the results. I think this puts the lie to the notion that women should not drink while breastfeeding or need to "pump and dump" (an appalling term) after having even one drink. The following is an exact quote from her blog:

Method:
First I took a sample of my milk (about 1 mL) prior to drinking any alcoholic beverage. I expressed the milk mid-nursing session to ensure I had a goodly portion of fore & hind milk. After completing the nursing session, I mixed myself an alcoholic beverage consisting of 2 oz of 80 proof (40%) vodka in 10 oz of soda (Sprite). I proceeded to drink the entire 12 oz in about 30 minutes. About 30 minutes after finishing (1 hour after beginning to drink), I expressed some milk (about 1 mL) and labeled it 'immediate'. I then waited 1 hour and expressed more milk (about 1 mL) and labeled it '2 hours'. In the 2 hours (from the beginning), I did not drink any more alcoholic beverages, drink other beverages, or eat any other foods. Another day, 1/2 of a beer (4.3% alcohol) and 2-6 oz glasses of wine were consumed within 1.5 hours. About an hour from the beginning of the last drink, a milk sample (about 1 mL) was taken. This sample was labeled '1 hour - 3 drinks'. Another sample was taken about an hour after that (2 hours after the beginning of the last drink). This sample was labeled '2 hours - 3 drinks'.

The samples were stored in the refrigerator until processing. An Agilent headspace instrument was used to run the tests. Propanol and ethanol standards were also tested to ensure the instrument was within limits. The instrument is maintained by the KSP Lab Toxicology Section and used in forensic determinations of blood and urine alcohol content.

Results:
The sample labeled as 'immediate' registered as 0.1370 mg/mL which correlates to 0.01370% alcohol in the sample. The sample labeled '2 hours' registered as 0.0000 mg/ml which correlates to 0.0000%. The sample labeled '1 hour - 3 drinks' registered as 0.3749 mg/mL which correlates to 0.03749% alcohol in the sample. The sample labeled '2 hours - 3 drinks' registered as 0.0629 mg/mL which correlates to 0.00629% alcohol in the sample.

Conclusion:
The alcohol content in breast milk immediately after drinking is equivalent to a 0.0274 proof beverage. That's like mixing 1 oz of 80 proof vodka (one shot) with 2919 oz of mixer . By the way, 2919 oz is over 70 liters. Two hours after drinking one (strong) drink the alcohol has disappeared from the sample. Completely harmless to the nursing infant. Drinking about 3 drinks in 1.5 hours resulted in higher numbers, but still negligible amounts of alcohol would be transferred to the child. One hour after imbibing in 3 drinks, the milk was the equivalent of 0.07498 proof beverage. That would be like adding 1 oz of 80 proof vodka (one shot) to 1066 oz of mixer (1066 oz is over 26 liters). Two hours after imbibing in 3 drinks, the milk was 0.01258 proof. That would be like adding 1 oz of 80 proof vodka to 3179 oz of mixer (over almost 80 liters). So, even though an infant has much less body weight, any of these percentage of alcohol in breast milk is unlikely to adversely affect the baby. Bottoms up!

Eatmycheese yes I saw that just the other day. I had plenty of disapproving comments over Xmas because I dared to have a few wines and b/feed. One by my MIL who had earlier suggested I give my baby kefir ‘for his gut flora’ . I tried to explain that as a fermented product her kefir had a much higher alcohol content than my breastmilk. I think she thought that if I was drinking 14% wine my b/milk would be the same level.

My midwife advised me to have a glass of wine before breastfeeding if it helped me to relax.

Oh @tiny that made me chuckle.

As I understand it, alcohol is not absorbed into breastmilk as it is the bloodstream though traditionally that has been the assumption.

I think the main danger to drinking while breastfeeding would be that you were woozy or that you were unable to hold or handle the baby properly not get them pissed because you’ve had a few drinks over the course of an evening.

I don’t think though that even research such as this will stop many from frowning upon drinking while breastfeeding.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting you get shitfaced while breastfeeding but it’s tiresome that a women who breastfeeds and has a couple of drinks is demonised, when perhaps this sort of things suggests she shouldn’t be.

Who knows?

Actually @honorariam She said she took her pump with her as otherwise she'd have been really uncomfortable all night and would have had to go home early.
So even your reason for moaning about it is wrong. 😄

I don’t think anyone is suggesting you get shitfaced while breastfeeding

Absolutely. Also considering lots of b/feeding mothers co sleep or bring baby into bed with them to feed it would be dangerous to be very drunk and breastfeeding.

What's the harm if she chucks away a bit of milk or if anyone else does? It's hardly the end of the world.

@tiny yes I breastfed my youngest and sometimes still my middle child. I co sleep almost every night with the youngest.

@ethel I have taken my breast pump to weddings - where yes I was drinking - and pumped the milk out and got rid of it, because i was uncomfortable and engorged. If I had been going home that night though, or it wasn’t too hot in terms of ambient storage then I would have stored it in bottles with lids, since you can keep breastmilk stored at room temp for so long and it would have been safe to drink. Not that I’m saying every woman should do that!

I do think though that is refreshing to see more of whoever these celebrities are breastfeeding. It can only be a good thing since the rates in this country are pitiful.

And yes as mothers we are judged, judged and then judged again

Pumping and dumping is a totally pointless exercise.

However, her breasts, her decision. I doubt many people are looking to vogue Williams for bf advice.

Thanks for the info. I get who she is now and her husband, Spencer.
Well she hasn't done anything wrong even though it sounds revolting. I fail to see the need for publicising it but I suppose that's what they do.

Most women wouldn't drink that much whilst feeding. I don't think I drank once but I'm not keen on alcohol anyway.

I wish people would stop perpetuating the myth that you can't drink and breastfeed. It's such bollocks but seems to be thought of as "fact" by most people.

I have read and heard differing advice about alcohol and breastfeeding and would probably do the same if I drank more than one small glass of wine.m

Bloody hell. You REALLY don't need to. Honestly.

I didn’t realise you shouldn’t pump and dump but I certainly did it myself. Any alcohol is a poison.
Lots of people drink during pregnancy and you don’t know if there is going to be an effect until the kid is much older.
Alcohol affects brain development.
I think she is right not to take any risk. Even if it is small.

Drinking while your baby inside you is not remotely the same as drinking while breastfeeding your baby.

Maune she had sore boobs? I'd rather that than be sore and leaking all night

Is it the same as 'no carbs before Marbs' because ya know Drs have found that diets low in carbs are dangerous (apparantly)?! If people are dumb enough to copy these reality 'celebrities' I say let them.

I agree there’s no need to pump and dump because of the fear of alcoholic milk, but it’s a few moments of a reality TV show, not a documentary about breastfeeding.

Vogue may be unaware that it’s not necessary.
The TV show producers may be unaware that it’s unnecessary, and given its not a breastfeeding documentary, they’ve no reason to be fact checking it.

And the positive effect of the fact that she’s breastfeeding on her reality TV show probably outweighs any negative effect of the pump and dump myth being shown.

Pumping to reduce engorgement = sensible idea
Pumping because you think your milk is toxic = daft idea.
Or do some of you have blood transfusions after a night out.

Is she another tennis player?

I don't know, but I have a long ISH story on alcohol and breastfeeding.

I was breastfed as a baby, I was also having tests done for a possible neurological condition. It was suspected I had the condition but some symptoms weren't present. My mother had been at the hospital with me and the doctors were telling her all about the condition and what symptoms to look out for. She was very stressed and came home and put me to bed. After that she had a few glasses of wine. She got up in the night and fed me. I was sick not long after, I'd never been a sicky baby and this was a significant amount of sick. She was told by the doctor earlier in the day that if I was sick she'd need to call 999. So that she did, I was taken by ambulance all the way to London in the middle of the night and had an emergency brain scan. It all came back fine and she was told I'd probably been sick due to her drinking wine earlier in the evening.
Now I'm not saying that every baby would end up having an emergency brain scan but clearly then the doctors suggested it was my mother drinking wine and then later feeding me that made me sick?
I never drank whilst I was breastfeeding on that, but now I question how true it is from all these posters saying there is no need to pump and dump?

MamaHetchick, that story makes little sense to this context. The neurological concerns were there anyway and since you were a baby, research into the alcohol content of breastmilk has shown that it is so diluted to the baby to have negligable effect as various PPs have demonstrated.

I hadn't a sufficiently boozy nightlife to have needed to consider pumping and dumping for alcohol content but did to manage engorgement when away from my babies. No point in storing it as the sods were bottle refusers who happily abstained in my absence aside from storage issues. The best feed ever was being reunited with my 1 year old after 4 sore days!

Meh at least she didn't FF Personally it is none of my business how any woman feeds her baby.
OTOH
I love Vogue Williams. She has done really well as a documentary filmmaker and presenter.