To think that lots of men think this way

[Flynnshine]

Recently a good friend of my partners has split from his wife of 15 years, they have two young children between 10 and 13.
The husband has decided he isn't happy and wants to end the relationship.

Last week he came over to our house in the evening and I left him and my husband chatting in the living room. I wasn't eavesdropping but I was only in the next room so could hear their conversation. Basically the husband has been planning this split for a while, 6 months before he announced he wanted to end things he sold their beautiful big house and they moved into their much smaller starter home which they had out on rent - they moved the kids out of their private school education and into a state school local to their new home.

They've always had a very comfortable life, beautiful house, nice cars and very fancy holidays a few times a year. They both had good jobs when they first met but when the children came along the wife stopped work and dedicated her life to them. They've done amazingly well at school, both top of their classes, sporty and do two sports for their local borough. They are polite and thoughtful and genuinely lovely children.

The conversation I overheard was the husband complaining that even though the wife hasn't paid towards the mortgage for over 10 years she will still be entitled to half of what the house is worth - he seemed bitter and angry and said he'd been hiding money for ages so she wouldn't get anything when they divorce. He's even planning on quitting his job and becoming self employed so he can fudge his earnings so his maintenance payments could be less. My husband was agreeing with him, I don't know if just to placate him or if that's really how he feels!

This man honestly thinks that because he has been working and paying a mortgage that his worth is so much more. He thinks he has enabled her to not work for over 10 years and that she has been having a jolly all that time. It's like he gives zero shits that he has two wonderful children that he has never had to lift a finger for and she has given her all to those children while he reaps the rewards of that.

Do all men deep down think like this, even if they won't openly admit it? Is money really the be all and end all of everything!?

It's a higher earners bias, not simply male-female.

Maybe. I was the higher earner when my marriage ended and my DH was the main career for our children. So he kept almost everything; the house, the car, all the furniture, everything in the kitchen etc. I took my clothes and my CDs. I had to buy new things for my new flat, which was a pain. What I resented was that he got almost everything when it was his behaviour that caused the marriage to end. On the other hand, I didn't feel this resentment for more than a few weeks because I was so glad to be free of his bullshit.

After reading your opening post OP, I just knew this would end up a SAHP and WP argument no matter what, it's so predictable.

I don't think most men think like that, I do however think sadly a lot do,I would like to think, thankfully, non that I socialise with. I also think the people you least expect act terribly when they are in such situations, so you never can really tell how someone will act once "it hits the fan", so to speak

Sadly in life you can't have it all, so you have to prioritise, she has given the benefit of herself to the family for years and now he is trying to penalise her for it. I'm sure you will both try to "encourage" this man to do right by his wife if it's needs to come to that. I don't think your husband deserves the name calling he is receiving, it's a tad extreme !!

@Singlenotsingle I regret my wording in some parts, I'm not trying to suggest that ALL working parents don't bring up their kids (although my quick response definitely sounded like that!) but I don't regret the post. I put a question out there and have a had a mixture of responses as I expected. I think I am just so sad for my friend that her husband has been so conniving and feels she is worthless because of choices they both made. Together.

I work part time (school term times) my husband is self employed and works very odd hours with urgent call outs so it makes sense for me to work the school hours and do the pick ups / drop offs and home stuff. It works. He values me and I value him. One of our children is disabled so after school and holiday care is almost impossible and very expensive. But I'm not 'financially independent' because of our family situation and I don't know how I could even begin to be!!

it's the full time 40+ hour a week working ones who struggle the most trying to be the perfect employee and the perfect mother. Because 9 times out of 10 they are the ones who have to make sacrifices when the children are on school holidays (13+ weeks a year) and sick.

Ah this is where your friends are going wrong. I don't bother trying to be either the perfect employee or mother, I'm content with being average at best. My children are still wonderful.

I do believe this is a fake goady post though

It isn't just men. There have been a couple of threads in the last couple of weeks where when the woman has been the highest earner and they have said the same.

Women get told to hide money all the time on here. Don’t see the outrage then

Women get told to hide money all the time on here. Don’t see the outrage then

I’ve only ever seen that where women aren’t particularly wealthy but are trying to get some money to enable them to leave an abusive relationship. Not the same thing at all as squirrelling away massive wealth

@BishBoshBashBop agreed. It's the same either way, and all boils down to whoever earns the most is the most valued.
My friend doesn't want his money, she's fucking devastated her family is being torn apart and when I tell her everything I know it will break her that the man she loved and vowed to love forever could put money over his children and her.

You said they were both good earners and that they both wanted children, why is one doing all of the childcare and the other all of the earning? Also, I understand that raising young children is hard but, by the time they're 10 and 13, there isn't any reason that she couldn't work at least part time. I think by this point, they do not have equal responsibility at all.
And your implications that, had she not stayed at home, their children would not have been quite so wonderful is simply bullshit. Sorry.

he man she loved and vowed to love forever could put money over his children and her you see this all the time on the relationships board, and in real life, as you get older.

It's almost universal that if the man leaves his wife for another woman any respect comes to a crashing halt, and she's left absolutely to her own devices.

Ok I have to ask - do people in this situation really not see this coming? I'm not being patronising here, I'm genuinely asking as this thread has scared me a bit and I'm still quite young and admit I have much to learn about life. I've just turned 28 and my husband and I have only been married 2 years, together for 7 and we're blissfully happy. We're best friends and tell each everything. He's a wonderful caring man and has always been desperate for kids. If anything he persuaded me to get on the baby train, not the other way around lol!

Now I'm pregnant and we just moved to another country for his job (he's very well paid). My career doesn't really exist where we live but that's ok for us because his salary is enough for a family to comfortably live on and we have jointly decided that I would stay home to raise the kids and we're both very happy with that choice for now (or so he says..?) He said if I go crazy and want to go back to work, even if I earn less than the child care would cost, he will support me. He never makes promises that he doesn't keep (so far..?) We have both always referred to each other's money as our money and now he's the sole earner I deal with all of our finances - bills, budget, savings etc. We have a joint account but both have separate accounts back in the UK that neither of us is currently using. Not once has he pulled me up on spending, he seems to genuinely consider it a shared pot of money and pretty much blindly trusts me to make any financial decisions I so choose so long as there is enough money left over for him to buy 10 bottles of his favourite beer and a nice takeaway on payday.

But this thread has scared me - is this a front? Will he become bitter? Will things get nasty? Am I being naive? Sorry for rambling but any wisdom from older mumsnet folks would be greatly appreciated!

@Rodenhide I've said previously that she did talk to him about her returning to work, a number of times. He wasn't willing to sacrifice his career (that has improved significantly in the last 12 years) to split childcare during holidays and cover school runs. He is too busy and important at work.

No not all men think like that, a tradesman came to my house recently and he said he worked to give all his money to his ex wife for his sons. Even though he didn't see much of them, he wanted them to not struggle at all.
I've known 2 women really bully their husbands and take all their wages off them and not allow them a penny to themselves etc. If the man started complaining etc then they would get verbally abused and screamed at etc.

So basically it depends on the man/person.
OP I think I wouldn't be having this man back in your house from now on either.

My friend doesn't want his money, she's fucking devastated her family is being torn apart and when I tell her everything I know it will break her

If she doesn't want his money then don't tell her. I suspect she really does though given your intent to tell her.

PregnantSea Don't panic please! It's almost certainly not a front. And you're protected by being married. The thing is though that it's possible for even very nice men to change and turn selfish (voice of bitter experience) and you might not see it coming. So don't make yourself financially vulnerable

Very weird that he would disclose such sensitive details (6-month plan, money hiding) to your husband with the risk that he would tell and you would tell his wife..

I've spoken to my husband, apparently he doesn't really agree with him but didn't want to voice his opinion

Then he is someone who happily supports misogyny and financial abuse of women and children. He won't want to see it that way but that is exactly what he is doing. If his friend had been joking and justifying physical abuse would have also gone along with it for a quiet life.

One of the challenges women face in this situation is the men who they previously regarded as friends supporting their abusive ex "for a quiet life". It tells you a lot about the values of those men and just how real they are.

I told him if he really does agree with him then we need to re-think our lives and that I'll be upping my part time hours that fit in with the school and going back part time and he can share the responsibility of school runs and holidays with me and I'll pay half of the mortgage!

You are absolutely right but did he agree with you? What will he say to this man next time they meet? Its really not difficult to point out to someone, even a friend, just how unreasonable their position is in this situation.

PregnantSea - I would say that you need a long term plan to protect yourself financially. You can't know what will happen in the future with your relationship. In your position I would be doing something that would work towards your career in future - courses maybe?
I am so grateful to MN for telling me not to give up work when I wasn't coping with work and babies.

Rudgie - I think that tradesman fancied you. It's a good line.

I've heard men say

'I don't want somebody else to bring my children up/her to go and do some crappy job instead of being a mother'.

'She only wants to work to get away from the kids and cleaning'

'If I wanted somebody else looking after my kids, I'd have married them instead of her'.

'Her job isn't as important as mine/she only works 40 hours a week/she's not in charge/I do a physical job and she just sits on her arse all day in the office/it's not my job to deal with sick kids or the school, I can't possibly take time off/I ignore the calls from the school because she deals with all that/her job's easier so it's not my job to do the housework/if she wants to work, she'll have to fit it in with the cleaning and washing because I'm not about to do it'

and within months when they've started lining up the younger model 'She's after MY money'.

In fairness, I've also seen a woman who did use the I'm a mother defence for not working and spending her partner's salary on clothes, holidays, a car and nights out with her boyfriend rather than paying the mortgage. But only one woman, not the large numbers of men.

I've also had phone calls where a child needs an ambulance and the father has refused point blank to leave work and told us to keep calling the mother/try the grandmother/this is the neighbour's number or the child has told us through sobs not to call Dad because he'll be mad later if he's disturbed at work. And ones where they've just ignored the messages that their child is in hospital because 'I knew she'd be there, so I didn't need to do anything'.

It's used to justify fucking her over. No other reason, just pure contempt because she's either rejected him or he's determined to come across as a Godlike figure to the next one.

Do WOHP REALLY bring their children up? Parents who leave the house as their kids are getting up and come home when they are in bed!? 5 sometimes 6 or 7 days a week.
*
I disagree, sorry. Someone else is!*

Oh no you didn't ......the fireworks were always going to be massive lol !!!!

it's the full time 40+ hour a week working ones who struggle the most trying to be the perfect employee and the perfect mother. Because 9 times out of 10 they are the ones who have to make sacrifices when the children are on school holidays (13+ weeks a year) and sick.

Yes but they are fully aware of that situation once they embark on having children. So their "sacrifices" are more "choices" I would say. They chose to have children knowing they would want to return to work and how that would impact on their lives, so it's a choice to be in that situation it's not as if they wake up when the child is of school age and think of the sacrifices then. Obviously only if it's a choice to be a WP.

I don't know why people let "social pressure" of being "perfect" get to them. I genuinely don't care what "Matilda" around the corner thinks of my choices. My family and I are happy with our choices and that's all that counts with me.

Op I feel really sorry for your friend and you and your hubby must feel awful dealing with the man who is hiding assets. Hopefully it will be resolved in the divorce now a third body is aware of the movement of funds. I'm sure your friend is devastated she will need a good friend in the near future

@PregnantSea I wish I had the answer for you, but judging by some of the shocking responses on this thread you're silly for becoming financially dependent on your husband. I'm only in my late 20's too with two young children. Like all posts on Mumsnet you're going to see a whole wealth of opinions some that really conflict but YOU have to do what works best for you and your family at any given time. If that means that you work full time and have help with childcare while you are at work or you are a stay at home parent it really shouldn't matter! You should be seen as and treated equally.

I'm sure your husband is not going to turn into a monster and my original post should have been worded better but I was just shocked and to be honest after all of these posts from others I am even more shocked!

PregnantSea, if you were my daughter I would be very worried. All your eggs are in one basket. A relationship breakdown, him losing his job or worse would see you in a bad situation. With no recent work experience getting back into employment is much harder.

Not to mention if the relationship breaks down a court could block you easily moving home to your family.

Did your husband just sit there and listen? My husband would have showed him the door.
Mine would too. Neither would I have stood by and eavesdropped and said nothing.

No need for an argument or waking the kids. A simple “I’m afraid we’re not prepared to sit and listen to what you are going to do to our friend, please leave” would suffice.

Oh, and the vast, vast majority of Working Parents do raise their own children. Yes, even those who use childcare. SAHP who have children of school age have them at school for most of the day. You wouldn’t suggest they aren’t raising their children?

@Postino and @FaFoutis thank you for replying and easing my nerves lol.
I am currently completing a new degree which would allow me to get into a career I'm really interested in. It's only part time so as to allow me time for the baby which is coming, but I can probably pick it up full time once the baby is of school age. So hopefully I'd be ok... Unless things went south before it was completed. Not sure what I'd do in that circumstance...