To think that lots of men think this way

[Flynnshine]

Recently a good friend of my partners has split from his wife of 15 years, they have two young children between 10 and 13.
The husband has decided he isn't happy and wants to end the relationship.

Last week he came over to our house in the evening and I left him and my husband chatting in the living room. I wasn't eavesdropping but I was only in the next room so could hear their conversation. Basically the husband has been planning this split for a while, 6 months before he announced he wanted to end things he sold their beautiful big house and they moved into their much smaller starter home which they had out on rent - they moved the kids out of their private school education and into a state school local to their new home.

They've always had a very comfortable life, beautiful house, nice cars and very fancy holidays a few times a year. They both had good jobs when they first met but when the children came along the wife stopped work and dedicated her life to them. They've done amazingly well at school, both top of their classes, sporty and do two sports for their local borough. They are polite and thoughtful and genuinely lovely children.

The conversation I overheard was the husband complaining that even though the wife hasn't paid towards the mortgage for over 10 years she will still be entitled to half of what the house is worth - he seemed bitter and angry and said he'd been hiding money for ages so she wouldn't get anything when they divorce. He's even planning on quitting his job and becoming self employed so he can fudge his earnings so his maintenance payments could be less. My husband was agreeing with him, I don't know if just to placate him or if that's really how he feels!

This man honestly thinks that because he has been working and paying a mortgage that his worth is so much more. He thinks he has enabled her to not work for over 10 years and that she has been having a jolly all that time. It's like he gives zero shits that he has two wonderful children that he has never had to lift a finger for and she has given her all to those children while he reaps the rewards of that.

Do all men deep down think like this, even if they won't openly admit it? Is money really the be all and end all of everything!?

How can you care for your child if you are at work? You can care for them for a small amount of time each day- but will need to pay someone else to do it for you during working hours. I know people whose baby spent 12 hours a day at nursery.

Fresta, but if you LOVE your job, surely this makes it all right.

Well I never said men can get pregnant and it is ridiculous that you've misinterpreted my post that way. However, for the majority of couples the decision to have a baby is a joint decision and most certainly a choice.

No, I was being sarcastic. It may be a joint decision, but it will be the woman bearing all the negative effects of that decision (obviously there are positives, too). Men hardly suffer as a result of the joint decision to have a child. Maybe poor diddums have a bit less of their wife’s attention, maybe they have to work harder. But that’s about it. Women who push back and make them share the burden, sometimes find the man gets all overwhelmed and fed up and ‘actually this life is not for him’. Have you seen many women walk out on their children stating this life is not for them?

I feel bad saying this, but I do in all honesty think that if I’d gone back to work and left DH with 3 DC under 5, they may not all still be here today.

The first time I left him with our first was when the baby was 7 months old. I only went over the road to a neighbours for coffee. Within 10 mins, he was knocking at the door with a screaming baby who had rolled off the bed onto his head.

Another time, he left the front door open and DD, aged 14 months, wandered down the path and the pavement and was brought back (thank god)! by a neighbour. It still sends shudders through me

On the other hand, he’s does a great job of providing financially, he’s kind and supportive in other ways, he means well and he’s totally committed to wanting the very best for us all. But the 50/50 SAHD thing was never an option because he’s on a totally different wavelength.

With some it's because they are nasty, shallow pricks but with the majority it's because they just don't see motherhood/running a household etc. As an actual full time job.

Because they've never had to do it, they have no concept of how hard it is and because they are hard wired to be self orientated they just don't care what we sacrifice for them...

MrsBombastic, I do so agree with you. They got no idea and neither do they want to know. The latter is a bigger problem...

million fresta not one of my posts puts down SAHP. I have provided a balanced view (often supported by facts and research) and have maintained the stance that we should respect the choices individuals make. Overall, one choice is not better than the other but for individual families one choice will suit them best and be in their best interests. They should be able to make those decisions free from judgement.

Unfortunately you are not affording working mothers the same respect....or maybe it's just a personal attack on me?
It's quite a disgusting attitude really.

Yes I chose to work full-time after having a child.

Yes I love my job but obviously I love my son more. Both are not mutually exclusive.

Yes my son goes to nursery but he's thriving and it's awesome. If he wasn't, then different decisions would have had to be made by me and my husband.

None of the above makes me a bad parent. My son is happy, my husband is happy and I'm happy .......we do what works for us as a family and that's all that matters.

Stop with the petty judgements.

Sure, it's hard work looking after babies and toddlers.

I thought this thread was about SAHMs to school-aged children, though.

Some of you are letting your negative experiences with men get in the way of rational thinking.

I don’t know a single woman who can’t leave her children with her partner. That is absolutely ridiculous in this day and age.

I've known more than one woman to manufacture reasons why she can't return to work when the kids are in school. It's a risky lifestyle choice on my opinion.

Men hardly suffer as a result of the joint decision to have a child. Maybe poor diddums have a bit less of their wife’s attention, maybe they have to work harder. But that’s about it. Women who push back and make them share the burden, sometimes find the man gets all overwhelmed and fed up and ‘actually this life is not for him

Women don’t have to suffer either. It sounds like you are projecting massively. If you have to force your husband to be a parent then he’s not a good dad or husband.
What you seem to be unable to understand is that although this may be your situation it is not the situation for many women. You do not represent all women and your DH does not represent all men.

Well, Baa you more or less denigrated the hard work and the sacrifice women who SAH to look after their children, make. It wasn’t a choice for me and it isn’t for many others. Few people would wilfully choose to disadvantage themselves, lose their social status and become as good as non-existant to wider society.

This thread and many others before it, clearly demonstrates how much men and other women value SAHP’s contributions. It is a non-contribution really. A mother doesn’t need to be there for her children, ‘quality childcare’ will do as well. She is a lazy arse who should be out working when the babies are at nursery and older children at school. Anything she does, can quite easily be substituted with no loss of value, her womb, her breast milk, her cuddles, her home making efforts. Seriously who needs that? Anybody can do it.

Well, guess what. They can’t. Many women realise this after they hold their baby for the first time regardless what career aspirations their heads were stuffed full with before. A Mother is irreplaceable. Not by quality childcare or anybody really well qualified, with a degree.

If people were more aware and respectful of how much mothers give (not in money!), we would live in a much nicer society.

We are moving more and more towards further disconnection/ disruption of our biological drivers and natural instincts. As PP quite rightfully observed, it is not always positive, but can create feelings of loneliness, disconnection, lack of belonging, dissatisfaction. At the end of the day. When one gets a minute to pause the rat race and look around them.

My DH has never got the DC ready for school by himself. I can’t get him to engage and I can’t be bothered, frankly. He has never made dinner for them - he would order Deliveroo. He has no idea about things they need to take for school on given days - eg games kits or violins or the h/w schedule. Ok, they are older now, so they can sort themselves in theory, but still. Once when I took the elder one to an early morning training, he took the girls with hair like bird’s nests, eating half a dry baguette each and gave the hair bands to the teacher and asked her if she could “do something with this”. The teacher told me this is what he said to her and the kids were covered in crumbs. He also just walked into the school to try and look at their work and was asked to leave because you can’t just do that. Then I got a call to say they had no PE kits so I had to take those in mid- morning anyway.

Formula is exactly the same as breast milk, literally no difference

Not true.

I’m not vehemently pro-breast feeding, btw.

Even I left dc as babies with their Dad, who wouldn't.
he was straight in with nappies, and night feeds at weekend first feed early morning during the week. This became his working pattern.
We are going backwards. In the late 80's/early 90's Mother and Baby, Parenting and the other magazine were really pushing "Modern Dad".
Every Dad I knew without exception were doing their fair share and no problems.
My dh career didn't take off hugely when younger as he declined a life on the road and opted for other things instead, like teaching (the most prestigious schools, mind.
I'm sure in his youth he had visions of this temporary roaming life, but reality is kids need care and nurture

I always worked from ten weeks onwards ( from home) but I find the ire aimed at SAH mothers on MN strange. Who do you think volunteers to go on the coach with the children to make the ratios suitable for swimming lessons and school trips? Unpaid mothers, often. Their contribution is important even if they don’t draw a salary for it.

Oh and they read the magazines were involved all the way.
They knew as much as the mothers, they went to all the classes and were aware as anyone can be what was expected of him.
90's men were better

My DH has never got the DC ready for school by himself. I can’t get him to engage and I can’t be bothered, frankly. He has never made dinner for them - he would order Deliveroo. He has no idea about things they need to take for school on given days - eg games kits or violins or the h/w schedule

Surely the time to discuss this division of childcare was before choosing to have children?

millions Again, where have a said that SAHP don’t contribute?and aren’t valuable to society? You are projecting your situation on to others and misinterpreting everything I say. I have huge respect for SAHP but I also have huge respect for WOHP.....which is more than I can say for you.

You say you didn’t have a choice ....yes you did unless you have never made a decision in your life ever.

I can’t engage with you anymore millions as the wilful misinterpretation of my respectful posts is starting to get increasingly frustrating.

Friends dh took his daughter to school in a dress and tights, it was assembly and she had to stand up. 3 women went to cover her legs as it was just a top and tights.
Child only 4 so no embarrassment for the kid, Dad didn't do many daft things again though.

Aw come on, be nice this could be such a good discussion. We don't have to agree, all opinions are valid.
So when I want your opinion I'll give it to you.

Yes, men are often very good at strategic incompetence. And there are plenty of women who facilitate it.

Blaa, yes you can say I made a decision, a decision that negatively impacted me, but hugely benefitted my family. Doesn’t stop me being aware how much I gave up. And to PP, my work ethic is all right, thanks. Indeed, it is better, because I still give 100% without being remunerated for it.

I respect WOH parents, they have to juggle and compromise. I have been one. Often WOH is a necessity, not a ‘choice’. But it is a fallacy to think you can win all round and never have to pay any costs. The costs of our decisions may be different, but there always are costs.

God this thread makes me very glad I married a man who enjoyed spending time with his children as much as I did, and who was perfectly capable of changing nappies, cooking dinner and doing housework. Judging by the close relationship my kids have with him I think they’re pretty glad too

Hubanmao Aw, that's lovely.

I look at ds1 now, a father himself and he's a bloody good one too. Ds2 has nearly got the deposit together with his partner. I can't see them waiting to have children, they both love children and baby sit any small kids in the extended families.
Still have dd though, not as often as I'd like, but I'm working through it.

Always happy to have a discussion with you Romany 🙂

I don’t think anyone is denying there are downsides as well as upsides to pretty much every decision Millions. For me, the downside to working was when we had several years with 3 young children and childcare costs which equalled my income. That was quite tough to retain the same level of impetus when I didn’t feel we were getting any immediate financial gain. However, I’m really pleased I did continue working as I’ve reaped the benefits in the longer term, so i guess that kind of negates the downside in a way. My house probably wasn’t as tidy as some of my friends when my kids were small, as the last thing I was going to do on my days off was slave over housework- but I was happy to pay that price for the upsides of remaining in work

Me too Hubanmao
Me and DH worked at the same place until recently and at his leaving do his boss made a speech and described DH as ‘often seen showing anyone who will stop and listen pictures and videos of his son’ and actually mentioned what a dedicated father he was......it was lovely to hear and nice to see an organisation understanding that their empoyees are people with other things in their lives!