To think that lots of men think this way

[Flynnshine]

Recently a good friend of my partners has split from his wife of 15 years, they have two young children between 10 and 13.
The husband has decided he isn't happy and wants to end the relationship.

Last week he came over to our house in the evening and I left him and my husband chatting in the living room. I wasn't eavesdropping but I was only in the next room so could hear their conversation. Basically the husband has been planning this split for a while, 6 months before he announced he wanted to end things he sold their beautiful big house and they moved into their much smaller starter home which they had out on rent - they moved the kids out of their private school education and into a state school local to their new home.

They've always had a very comfortable life, beautiful house, nice cars and very fancy holidays a few times a year. They both had good jobs when they first met but when the children came along the wife stopped work and dedicated her life to them. They've done amazingly well at school, both top of their classes, sporty and do two sports for their local borough. They are polite and thoughtful and genuinely lovely children.

The conversation I overheard was the husband complaining that even though the wife hasn't paid towards the mortgage for over 10 years she will still be entitled to half of what the house is worth - he seemed bitter and angry and said he'd been hiding money for ages so she wouldn't get anything when they divorce. He's even planning on quitting his job and becoming self employed so he can fudge his earnings so his maintenance payments could be less. My husband was agreeing with him, I don't know if just to placate him or if that's really how he feels!

This man honestly thinks that because he has been working and paying a mortgage that his worth is so much more. He thinks he has enabled her to not work for over 10 years and that she has been having a jolly all that time. It's like he gives zero shits that he has two wonderful children that he has never had to lift a finger for and she has given her all to those children while he reaps the rewards of that.

Do all men deep down think like this, even if they won't openly admit it? Is money really the be all and end all of everything!?

I haven't had time to read all the posts...each time I try to catch up there are more pages to read.
Where I live the scenario described by the OP is reasonably common (husband is breadwinner, wife is SAHM with junior/high school age kids, have nice house, several foreign holidays, sometimes private schools, sometimes not)
MY OH and me have our own business and it worked best for us for me to be mainly at home until the youngest started school, although I still did accounts, vat returns and small amounts for the business. Now I work 5 days, mostly around school hours although we do use after school clubs/holiday clubs. When I was a SAHM I used to volunteer at a toddler group, and had a few other volunteer roles.
I find it quite sad that people are so dismissive of SAHM like a PP have said nannys, housekeepers, nursery workers, cleaners, oven cleaners, dog walkers etc all seem to be valid use of time unless it is for yourself.
In society both can benefit each other. My kids doctors, teachers, dance teacher are all WOHP, but now as a working parent I benefit from and appreciate the SAHM that volunteer in school, accompany the kids swimming, go on school trips, are my back up if my train is late for school pick up. I see neither as being better than the other - people do what suits best their family circumstances and finances.

millions Carrying a baby and giving birth doesn't automatically make you primary carer. What about surrogacy? Adoption?

I'm sorry your experience of male carers has been negative but I don't see how difficult it can be to understand that many of us know men who are more than capable of raising and caring for children....men who are just as capable as women. We do not have the monopoly on caring traits and abilities.
Those are the facts. You may not like it. You obviously find it uncomfortable but it doesn't undermine you as a mother or mean I think SAHPs are lazy ( quite the opposite)
The fact my DH is an excellent father doesn't mean I'm any less of an excellent mother.

fresta because we're human and we've evolved. I disagree but then again my experience is of excellent, capable fathers who contribute equally to the raising of their children.

I also know some excellent male nursery nurses ( I wish there were more!) Who have demonstrated the ability to care for children in a childcare setting just as well as their female counterparts.

@smallgirlproblems thank you, finally a response that's not fuelled with anger!

What matters is the children. And mine are wonderful. As I’m sure the children of SAHM are too :)

*Blaa

I have a question for you my love.
I've noticed recently that some teen girls are talking about not having children or a partner in the future.
As these are all high achievers and obviously not representative of all teens, but I wondered if you have noticed any shift in those determined for careers rather than a job they might give up after dc?

Hi Romany

Absolutely, but there are many, many reasons for this;

• women no longer expected to give up work once married
• maternity rights mean it is possible for women to return to work
• flexible working
• work done to raise aspirations
• work done to raise awareness of traditionally male careers
• positive role models
• work done to challenge gender stereotypes

The aim is to ensure boys and girls have equality of choice and aren't being discriminated because of their sex. Organisations such as the CMI do wonderful work in encouraging girls/women to aspire to management.
There is still a lot to be done but the latest statutory guidance on careers education specifically references challenging gender stereotypes.

As humans we have the intellectual ability to move past evolutionRy determinism. Fortunately.

Not sure where the paragraphs went!!

As humans we have the intellectual ability to move past evolutionRy determinism. Fortunately.”

I agree Bertrand that this is very fortunate indeed, but I also think you have to be careful not to obliterate biological urges or pretend these are no longer relevant because I think therein lies unhappiness, mental health problems and people (men and women) feeling disconnected on an emotional / psychological level by the pressure to confirm to a capitalist ideal of “contributing” and “equality.”

People need to stop thinking in extremes. It is possible for both men and women to respond to the biological urges to care for a child AND work in a job they love and are passionate about. It's not always about pressure to contribute and earn money.

I agree Indigo

Blah

i agree with you and so glad that the statutory guidance is promoting equality.
I also agree about the extremes, and recently told a group of girls (not my job) that there is no reason to forgo having dc and a partner because society thinks in a certain way.
I told them it was important to find a partner who supported their view and there was no reason why they couldn't have a career and children.
This particular group were adamant that they couldn't, and I was interested in where that opinion had come from.

The two definitely aren't mutually exclusive!
Some of that could be learnt behaviour. If they've only seen mothers without careers and women with careers not having children then that can become normalised.

Also, they could have misinterpreted 'don't start a family before you've established a career' as you can't have both!

It's definitely all about shared values. These things should be discussed before marriage and children!

Baa, sorry but your comments have reached such level of ridiculousness that I just give up. Everything is a choice apparently, women choose to get pregnant or men can choose to get pregnant. Both are valid choices.

Then the baby feeding conundrum. This is also a choice. Formula is exactly the same as breast milk, literally no difference. Men can give their babies the antibodies contained in formula, along with many other compounds formula has just the same as breast milk.

Well, childcare. Men are natural at it! Just look how many male nursery nurses and male nannies there are!

All very natural. It’s all about THE CHOICE.

How can you care for your child if you are at work? You can care for them for a small amount of time each day- but will need to pay someone else to do it for you during working hours. I know people whose baby spent 12 hours a day at nursery.

Well I never said men can get pregnant and it is ridiculous that you've misinterpreted my post that way. However, for the majority of couples the decision to have a baby is a joint decision and most certainly a choice. Sometimes that choice is taken away (unplanned pregnancy, infertility etc) but there still degrees of choice involved.
After the baby is born there is no reason why a dad absolutely cannot be an equal parent or even a primary carer...again choice.

Breastfeeding is also a choice. I never said it is better or worse than formula but there is a choice. Again, degrees of choice but choice all the same.

Yes men are just as capable of childcare as women. There aren't swathes of male nursery nurses for a variety of reasons but it's mainly due to stereotypes ( there is sooooo much research on this)
Why aren't there more female engineers?

I don't know why you feel the concept of choice is so ridiculous. Maybe you are unable to see past your own situation and the lack of choices you feel you had? Doesn't mean those choices don't exist.

You're still a parent fresta

Million

It is all about choice though.
choosing the right partner, the right job/career, where to attend uni, when to have children, how many to have.
Whether both parents will work or have a sahp. Where you will live.
Life is all one big choosing game.

“Well, childcare. Men are natural at it! Just look how many male nursery nurses and male nannies there are!”

There are several reasons for the low number of male child carers. The stereotype you are so keen to reinforce is one. The organisation of society along the lines you consider “natural” largely excludes men from childcare because as traditionally woman’s work it is mostly low paid-so intended as a “second income”.

Generally, yes.

As for the person who said "mine doesn't think like that".... how do you know?!

With some it's because they are nasty, shallow pricks but with the majority it's because they just don't see motherhood/running a household etc. As an actual full time job.

Because they've never had to do it, they have no concept of how hard it is and because they are hard wired to be self orientated they just don't care what we sacrifice for them... They're as bad as kids.

They're all me, me, me and they don't see a thing wrong with it.

I'm sure some men are sensitive delights but they are very much the minority.

I've kept a dossier on mine for years, documents I may need etc, just in case. He thinks I'm joking when I refer to my dossier lol.

So on one hand men are exactly the same as women and have all the same instincts urges to parent and care for children, but on the other they are selfish and shallow and goal oriented and sensitive ones are few and far between.

There's no way of knowing how many men think like this and how many don't but its yet another reason why when a woman allows herself to become wholly financially dependent on a man then she is taking a huge gamble

This. 100%.

We have got to maintain financial independence. It’s empowering and means you always have options out of bad situations. So many women become the SAHP just because their salary is lesser, when that’s just not the only consideration. Childcare costs should be factored into both parents salaries, not just weighed up against what the mother can earn. Women miss out on years of their career during their child rearing years, often struggling to ever catch up progression wise and missing out on pension contributions. To rely on someone else financially puts you into a massively vulnerable position.

When we talk about low paid work though, why is it that men are more likely to do road sweeping, or some other kind of manual labour than working in a nursery? I don’t dispute a large part of it is due to stereotyping and society, but again, this can’t be the whole story - it has to run deeper than this. I think the truth is, many of them simply don’t want to do it because it doesn’t come as naturally to them as it does to women. Just as there are many jobs women will never gravitate to by choice, even when all conceivable restraints and stereotypes are removed. Yes there are exceptions to every rule, but you don’t have to look far to have this confirmed.