To think that lots of men think this way

[Flynnshine]

Recently a good friend of my partners has split from his wife of 15 years, they have two young children between 10 and 13.
The husband has decided he isn't happy and wants to end the relationship.

Last week he came over to our house in the evening and I left him and my husband chatting in the living room. I wasn't eavesdropping but I was only in the next room so could hear their conversation. Basically the husband has been planning this split for a while, 6 months before he announced he wanted to end things he sold their beautiful big house and they moved into their much smaller starter home which they had out on rent - they moved the kids out of their private school education and into a state school local to their new home.

They've always had a very comfortable life, beautiful house, nice cars and very fancy holidays a few times a year. They both had good jobs when they first met but when the children came along the wife stopped work and dedicated her life to them. They've done amazingly well at school, both top of their classes, sporty and do two sports for their local borough. They are polite and thoughtful and genuinely lovely children.

The conversation I overheard was the husband complaining that even though the wife hasn't paid towards the mortgage for over 10 years she will still be entitled to half of what the house is worth - he seemed bitter and angry and said he'd been hiding money for ages so she wouldn't get anything when they divorce. He's even planning on quitting his job and becoming self employed so he can fudge his earnings so his maintenance payments could be less. My husband was agreeing with him, I don't know if just to placate him or if that's really how he feels!

This man honestly thinks that because he has been working and paying a mortgage that his worth is so much more. He thinks he has enabled her to not work for over 10 years and that she has been having a jolly all that time. It's like he gives zero shits that he has two wonderful children that he has never had to lift a finger for and she has given her all to those children while he reaps the rewards of that.

Do all men deep down think like this, even if they won't openly admit it? Is money really the be all and end all of everything!?

Yes, men are often very good at strategic incompetence. And there are plenty of women who facilitate it.

Berdtrand, absolutely. So while the Parents are at loggerheads with Dad trying his best with strategic incompetence and Mum making a point not doing it, it’s the kids who bear the brunt. How long shall I let them suffer for? A few weeks, months, years? So I can prove a point.

Women often cannot let this go on and men know that.

Like the example upthread with missing PE kit, Dad doesn’t care, but the child will be upset because they got told off for not having the proper kit.

Or Mom has delegated homework to Dad. Dad ‘forgets’. Who’s gonna get the grilling for missing h/w the next day? Not the Dad. So Mom ends punishing the innocent party.

My neighbour is a quite famous tv personality and she works a few mornings a week, leaving at 5am. On these mornings, she has a lady come to get her 3 DD’s and DH’s breakfasts ready and get them out for school because, in all seriousness, she told me her DH does not know where the plates, etc are in the house and also he loses track of time. He is a politician and writer and, though very pleasant, he does come across as in a slightly different planet. Ok, this is an extreme example, but there are loads of men this way inclined. They do relate to the DC in their own ways, for instance this DH debates with his kids for hours and provides amazing opportunities for them and they’re all super-switched on and have a kind of intellectual bond, if not the practical one. Other men, like my DH, may have a lot of energy to do outward bound stuff or sports with the DC and they bond that way. Some men may seem to be sorely lacking in certain areas, but then they compensate in others.

I think any man who isn't involved with every aspect of their childs life is a failure.
Now, of course it may be less than the mother for many reasons. They can't do it whilst at work, but the gym and hobbies aren't necessary when you have children.
There is no excuse in not reading, or never doing homework, or any other thing.
Once again, they might not have the same time as the mum, but they can know whats going on and ask about the family and kids schooling.
Be as involved as their home life permits.

Men are often sorely lacking in the low status boring domestic work area but keen to do the high status things

He doesn't know where the plates are?
he doesn't want to know where the plates are more like!

OMG. We’re actually normalising the fact that there are a whole portion of men who claim to not know where the plates are? Or how to get sports kits ready. I’m crying laughing over here. And there’s a whole demographic of women believing this.

I’m actually in hysterics. Are. You. Kidding. Me?

Surely the time to discuss this division of childcare was before choosing to have children

Choli, In order to discuss something, one needs to have good understanding of the issue. In our case (and a lot of others I suspect) there wasn’t a issue before kids. DH didn’t cook, so what, we eat out when I don’t feel like cooking. No problem there. We were both adults, so didn’t create masses of mess, so little cleaning. As there were only two of us, little laundry. We were out travelling, going places and generally enjoying ourselves all the time when not at work. Oh and we had a lie in every weekend and solid uninterrupted sleep.

Did I have any idea how a baby was going to impact on our lives? Did I fuck. I am sure DH had as much clue as me. How could I have discussed what I didn’t know? That I won’t sleep for months, that I won’t be able to put the baby down for a minute to have a bloody toast? It was a complete and utter shock.

You just work it out as you go. I didn’t know how I was going to react to motherhood. I am sure DH didn’t know from his side. And then there are children in the middle and you can’t bear to see them suffer why you fight your wars.

The fact that neither of us knew very much about the realities of having children was actually one of the reasons we talked about it in advance and agreed that we’d aim to share the load as equally as we could. The challenges as well as the joys; the downsides as well as the upsides.

I just want to add something. For some reason (and I haven’t read all the posts) but there seems to be a view that some of these posts are denigrating the role of the SAHP. If any of my posts indicated that, then I apologise.

The point I am trying to make is this: why can roles in the home not be shared more? Not because I don’t value the role of the SAHP, but because, well society is evolving.

Someone upthread mentioned that the majority of men they know are higher earners in their 40’s who have never voiced a want to be SAHP. I agree. Exactly what I see at work. But the younger ones do, they want to be hands on dad’s. And have a bond and play a very active part in the raising their children. I see far more of them sharing childcare and work. Declining evening events because the Mrs is out with work and it’s his turn to put his kids to bed.

Compromise.

You cannot argue with statistics. People will live longer (healthcare advances put my kids on seeing 100 easy). Jobs will become more dynamic with career retraining required. Really think people will stay married for 70/80 odd years? I don’t think so, so divorce rates are predicted to go up.

How do we as a society evolve to cope with the above changes? I would have serious words with any young girl in the family considering completely giving up their career. Not because I don’t value the role of the SAHP. But because I would fear for the future based on what the data tells me. I wouldn’t want to see anyone I love be vulnerable like the OP’s friend. I think it’s a heartbreaking situation.

I don’t disagree with you Word. There is the downside to having a workaholic or distracted father, for sure. He won’t be there every night and, if he is, he’s still probably in the work-mode mindset and rarely switched off. But then the money he creates gives the DC a different home, lifestyle other structural opportunities such as independent schools; travel; maybe he’ll buy their first flat or set them up in business - in other words longer term advantages they probably wouldn’t have had if he was rushing home for 6 every day. That is his contribution and kids can recognise this contribution too. It’s a different kind of family balance with different kind of costs, but if that’s how people are, what can you do?

OMG. We’re actually normalising the fact that there are a whole portion of men who claim to not know where the plates are? Or how to get sports kits ready. I’m crying laughing over here. And there’s a whole demographic of women believing this.

I don’t think anybody is normalising this. I suspect the mother is the example did her benefit-cost analysis and arrived at the conclusion that it would be more cost-effective overall to just get somebody to have the kids properly ready and in school on time than fight and fight and fight with the H with uncertain prospects of winning the battle. While having most certain guarantees of disruption and ill affect on children’s lives.

I don’t blame her. You know where the blame belongs.

We didn't know we were having ds1 until 20 weeks and was a complete shock.
Me and dh did everything together and did what we could to get ready.
He read the magazines and books with me. It's what couples did/do but now it's internet and apps not books and magazines.
My ds1 also had apps and communicated with his partner, isn't this the start of parenting.
Do women do this stuff on their own then, or not at all?

We did NCT together and it was great. All that deep breathing really helped

Yes, life would be very different if men could be a true partner at home as standard. It will mean genuine choices for the women.

OMG. We’re actually normalising the fact that there are a whole portion of men who claim to not know where the plates are? Or how to get sports kits ready. I’m crying laughing over here. And there’s a whole demographic of women believing this

It's bloody ridiculous. My 4 year old knows where the plates are and can gather together his uniform and book bag. It would be pretty embarrassing if his dad couldn't manage it.

Blaa, of course they can manage it. They don’t want to. Good old strategic incompetence.

Wanker BIL brags about how he fudges his self employment figures to pay his ex less. She's on the breadline, but BIL genuinely thinks he's a good dad because he hasn't abandoned her.

A little birdy may have got in touch with her to tell her what he's hiding and how after a family party when he had one too many and spilled his "genius" plan.

I think some of these comments are more reflective of an ideology rather than reality for many, and a refusal to see that some are more equal than others is true when it comes to choices, and I'm fucking sick of hearing that shoved in everyone's faces in response to absolutely everything.

To be believe that carrying a baby, birthing, and bf, doesn't have the massive impact on a woman that a man can never know, and only try to understand, is just simple. No, men cannot actually do what women do when it comes to babies, that doesn't mean they can't be excellent parents, but a baby is conditioned to its DM as the safest thing in its world and for healthy attachment, that should not be interfered with unless events interfere that cannot be avoided. Please don't go taking this as some signal to me thinking badly of men, who of course can be wonderful fathers.

Its horrible reading some of the interactions on here.

No one has said men can do exactly what women can do. That doesn’t mean that women can’t combine being an excellent parent with going to work. Ditto for men.

As an ‘oldie’ I think in some ways the agonising and emoting over it all is far more prevalent now because of social media and forums like Mumsnet.

Back in the day when I had my babies we didn’t have any of this. My ‘mum friends’ who had babies around the same time either returned to work pretty soon when the baby was around 3 months, or didn’t and SAH. None of this wrangling because in real life people are far too busy getting on with their lives and raising their children.

It would be good to think that nearly 30 years on, with the massively better legislation around giving birth which enables mothers to have up to a year off, with the option of transferring some leave to the dad, that there would be more of a sense of respect and equality. Good grief, we managed to get on with it 30 years ago and raise children into happy adults while retaining our careers if we chose, and certainly among my circle of friends we partnered men who played a very hands on role with the kids and in the home. Sometimes makes me wonder if things are going backwards.

The thing is smother so much of what I write is not just based on my personal experience or opinion it's been formed from years of academic research, study and teaching.

Attachment theory talks about babies and young children needing to develop secure attachments to a primary care giver originally this was written as the mother but that's because the theory was written in the 50's. In most cases this is still the case due to breastfeeding and the fact women, in general, still tend to be the primary carers.

Recent research shows an 'unfortunate' (not my words) trend of mothers engaging in 'gate-keeping' parenting which largely excludes fathers. The ideal scenario is co-parenting where both parents play an equal role.

Now, theory and research is idealistic and it's not always possible to implement fully in the real world. Which is why we make the best decisions possible for our individual circumstances.

This in no way undermines the role of mothers or those that choose to be SAHPs. It doesn't undermine or take anything away from pregnancy or the fact that that is unique to women.

But suggesting women are biologically pre-determined to be primary carers and that they are just simply better at childcare does undermine the role of the father.

In your personal circumstances you may feel you are better at childcare but that is largely down to individual personality, choices and societal expectations and stereotypes.

I agree with the worrying trend that has been documented also re the phenomenon of ‘gate-keeper parenting’. I don’t know enough about it to understand the drivers behind it and I’m not sure if any of the studies have identified what has driven this trend. I do know however that one of the early red flags that indicate a risk of future parental alienation against the non primary care giver is ‘gatekeeper parenting’. It comes up as common indicator where parental alienation has occurred. This deep seated sense that the primary care giver is the only person who can care, bond and provide the emotional care an infant/ child/ youth needs. Which is a complelte natural sense when the infant is a newborn / baby and completely vulnerable but makes less sense as the child starts to grow up. However the gatekeeper behaviours do not stop.

My jaw dropped when I read earlier on that a poster had written that she had never entrusted her Children to her DH for overnight care in 15(? I think) years???? I mean, are you serious?

If I was with someone and I couldn’t entrust them with the most important, precious beings in my life, then what on Earth am I doing living with them and why on earth did I procreate (repeatedly) with them? If there is a valid reason for something like that then I would argue should the children never be in the care of that person?

There is a deeply worrying trend I see and a part of me wonders (personal opinion here) if part of this is a backlash against the ‘equality’ initiatives we see. Initiatives to provide shared parenting and keep talent in the workplace. When the reality is that there is a demographic who staunchly do not believe this is the right thing for families. Thinks it’s an anti SAHP endeavour and against their personal values of wanting to be a SAHP. The challenge you have with that is that’s not how equality works. If we want pay equality, equal representation on boards, senior management, then that means we need to drive for equality everywhere and that means giving the father equal place in the home and with their children.

Otherwise you’re simply arguing the flip side of what that infamous google engineer James Damore who tried to argue that women were inherently less qualified (at a biological level) to be engineers. It was laughable in its bias.

Why is this convo any different? And it’s not an anti SAHP view. Before I get lynched for indicating I don’t respect that role.

Well I’ve never heard of this term “gate-keeper parenting” and this to me just sounds like yet another term to wrangle with and use as a stick to beat women with.

I don’t doubt there are men that naturally gravitate to childcare; who are happy to cut back in terms of their working hours, etc. What I am saying is that I have t really come across these men since I had children 15 years ago. I am mid- 40s. Yes all the DHs came to the NCT classes etc. I’m not saying they weren’t prepared to change nappies or whatever, but having the baby did not affect them in the same way. I’m talking about all the families I’ve met through having 3 DC and all my other friends. This is in West London. All the women have at least a first degree and we’re in professional jobs before DC, but even if they did return to work, it has never been with the same focus and determination as before.

I can only speak for my DH, but his reaction to having a baby was to literally go into overdrive workwise. That is quite evident now, in retrospect. He started a company which now, 15 years later, employs 1000s across Europe, but this doesn’t happen by working “normal” hours. As he would describe it, an instinct did kick in, but it was more of a “provider” instinct than the “primary carer” instinct, which is what I felt. I can only speak for us. We didn’t necessarily plan it, but that’s what happened.

No one has said men can do exactly what women can do

You haven’t, some have.

The terms ‘maternal gatekeeping’ and ‘gatekeeper parenting’ are pretty well documented- they’ve been around for years.

I don’t see it at all as a stick to beat women with. TooSassy your post is thoughtful and balanced and you’re right, we should be able to have these discussions without being shouted down as being ‘anti- SAHM.’

I’ve said it before, I have nothing but respect for couples who bring up their children with love, care and good values. That goes whether both parents are working or not. The important thing is that both parents are on the same page, neither feels taken advantage of or undervalued. And importantly, these things are dynamic, not fixed, because circumstances change and people evolve and what might be the perfect set up for a couple when their child is 6 months old probably won’t be the same when the child is 6 years old, which in turn won’t be the same when they’re 16.

In response to TooSassy, one of the documented characteristics of gatekeeper parenting is a need for a high level of external validation. Which makes me wonder whether one of the drivers is a sense of having made some kind of sacrifice, and therefore you’re looking for some kind of payback in return. Eg if, even on a subconscious level, a woman feels that she’s sacrificed her career to be a SAHM then she might be looking for something outside the family to demonstrate value for what she is doing (and actually some posters have explicitly stated that: they want ‘society’ to value the fact they are a SAHM.) which leads us into tricky territory because when you try to drill down to exactly what that means, you often draw a blank. I still believe validation for the choice you make comes from your own belief that you are doing what you feel best for yourself and your family, and your partners belief in that too.

And that works for all of us, WOHP too. I don’t expect anyone outside of my own family to tell me I’m wonderful because I’m a parent and work. (actually I don’t need my own family to tell me that... acknowledgment is through actions rather than words.)

Likewise 1ndig0 I assume feels validated in her position, where her dh responded to having children by going into overdrive as provider because he’s comfortable in that role, and she’s comfortable in the carer role. That set up sounds the complete other end of the spectrum from my own- but the point is, it’s not what we actually do, whether it’s WOH or SAH, it’s how we feel about those choices and how our partner feels about them. There is absolutely no ‘right’ way. Let’s face it, we’ve had plenty of WOHM and SAHM for decades now, and if there were any conclusive objective proof of one way being ‘better’ we’d know about it by now! The children of us WOHM from back in the 70s/80s/90s are adults now. And you know what... they’re indistinguishable from the children of SAHM.

Reading this as the mother of a six month old whose dad is currently at home on shared parental leave while I'm at full-time work, some of this thread makes me feel guilty, most of it makes me feel very grateful that DH doesn't think that DS is 'my job'. What I will say is that what we're doing is still very unusual where we live, and it's only women who have reacted with hostility (when anybody has - most people have ranged from supportive to uninterested, as you'd expect). I've got a lot of 'but how can you let him have YOUR leave?' (or even 'your holiday' - from women also on mat leave, who know how far from a holiday it is!) and a lot of 'jokes' about how their DH would be incapable of looking after the baby, which I find pretty sad. Most men I know have said 'I'd have liked to do that but my wife would never have gone for it', which I assumed was a rubbish excuse but now that I've heard so many women be so negative about it I don't think it is any more.