To think that lots of men think this way

[Flynnshine]

Recently a good friend of my partners has split from his wife of 15 years, they have two young children between 10 and 13.
The husband has decided he isn't happy and wants to end the relationship.

Last week he came over to our house in the evening and I left him and my husband chatting in the living room. I wasn't eavesdropping but I was only in the next room so could hear their conversation. Basically the husband has been planning this split for a while, 6 months before he announced he wanted to end things he sold their beautiful big house and they moved into their much smaller starter home which they had out on rent - they moved the kids out of their private school education and into a state school local to their new home.

They've always had a very comfortable life, beautiful house, nice cars and very fancy holidays a few times a year. They both had good jobs when they first met but when the children came along the wife stopped work and dedicated her life to them. They've done amazingly well at school, both top of their classes, sporty and do two sports for their local borough. They are polite and thoughtful and genuinely lovely children.

The conversation I overheard was the husband complaining that even though the wife hasn't paid towards the mortgage for over 10 years she will still be entitled to half of what the house is worth - he seemed bitter and angry and said he'd been hiding money for ages so she wouldn't get anything when they divorce. He's even planning on quitting his job and becoming self employed so he can fudge his earnings so his maintenance payments could be less. My husband was agreeing with him, I don't know if just to placate him or if that's really how he feels!

This man honestly thinks that because he has been working and paying a mortgage that his worth is so much more. He thinks he has enabled her to not work for over 10 years and that she has been having a jolly all that time. It's like he gives zero shits that he has two wonderful children that he has never had to lift a finger for and she has given her all to those children while he reaps the rewards of that.

Do all men deep down think like this, even if they won't openly admit it? Is money really the be all and end all of everything!?

whatsupapp men have exactly the same rights as women with regards flexible working. I know a number of men who work part time or condensed hours to accommodate childcare and to allow their wives to continue to work full time

He's not going to suddenly start, its who he is, responsible and gives a damn. Doesn't mean all others are the same, some, sadly very far from it.

The research has shown that for younger children being in formal childcare away from primary carer has a whole host of negative effects. Only to mention the things research could measure, like high levels of cortisol etc. Personally I didn’t believe I was doing my children a favour by having them in the care of 19 y.o. on minimum wage who has no or little experience of looking after a child. Even then, nobody cares about a baby as much as it’s parent. I don’t see it as a solve-all-problems-in-one-fell-swoop solution.

I know of lots of ways I could have advantaged myself at the expense of my kids. People’s priorities can be different. Yes I took a career hit and compromised my financial position so my children could benefit (H has also benefited in the process)

UserMe18

That's ridiculous. You are looking at it when it works out, not he other senariours when it doesn't!

If Wages 1 equals 200 and wages 2 equals 100
childcare equals 150!
Bills were 300! Then what???
Remember this wasn't planned circumstances. This was after we were both made redundant!

Women should not have to be supermums, and clearly cannot be with an arsehole who does nothing except increase his own earnings and benefit himself, this sadly, breaks many women when he won't step up and the DM will not let the DC suffer but take the hit herself.

@Smotheroffive absolutely, my hope is that our sons will replicate our behaviours, I know it's not guaranteed but I think growing up independently is very important. Boys are too often overly "mothered" more so than daughters meaning the cycle continues.

Just wanted to share my experience of working and bringing up children!

I work full time (currently on maternity but going back FT in few week) and so does my fiancé. We have a 2 year old and a 8 month old. I am actually the higher earner, I was successful at getting promoted whilst on mat leave.

We both work compressed hours so we each get a day off in the week with the children. They go to a childminder 3 days a week. My fiancé does the drop off and I go in early and do the pick up, bath, bed and story.

We have a cleaner, I do more washing, he does more cooking. We are pretty close to even.

It doesn’t have to be one or the other and I certainly don’t feel as though someone else is being up my children. I feel as those we are showing them an equal partnership and that they can achieve anything they want to if they work hard.

With regards to the original post, I think if they’ve made a decision for her to stay at home then that is right for them and they’ve contributed equally. I do think that when they are older though it’s harder to understand why she might not have started doing some work.

I know of lots of ways I could have advantaged myself at the expense of my kids. People’s priorities can be different. Yes I took a career hit and compromised my financial position so my children could benefit (H has also benefited in the process)

Million I think many women can say the same....

Millionscarletroses- if you didn’t want to use childcare and chose to give up your career rather than your husband doing so, then presumably you’re happy with your set up. Which makes me wonder why you seemed so scathing about men’s abilities in your earlier posts.

If your way of doing things works for you then great. Just don’t extrapolate from your situation that it would be best for everyone else. My 3 children are never had a SAHP and have grown into happy, successful adults. As I’m sure your children have or will.

million the research actually shows that children who have secure attachments at home and who attend high quality childcare actually see many benefits. The problems are with poor childcare providers and with children who may experience issues at home.
The research around cortisol levels is actually inconclusive. There is very little research been done in cortisol levels in children do conclusions have been drawn from studies with adults. Some researchers believe its an indication or stimulation not stress.

The biggest influence on a child's future is actually poverty.

UserMe18
Times have changed?
How many men have taken advantage of the shared parental (maternity leave) I can guarantee you it's under 10%!

*indication of

@MillionScarletRoses there's also research that's been published very recently about the benefits to working parents, particularly to girls, they went on to earn more and sons were more independent (which is then going to be more helpful to their potential wives!!).

I can see both sides of the argument for young children (perhaps even more so to SAHP for many families though I know this wasn't what was best for mine), but very much believe there will be more benefits to working parents for school aged children.

Even down to the DCs toys and mess, all the DMs responsibility, not his, compartmentalised and isolatory thinking.

@whatsupapp times have changed in that it is now available, it will hopefully continue to change meaning more men will take it. It will take a cultural shift.

His lack of involvement with the children is surely a clue as to what he values in life...I'm sure she will find a way to go on and that her life will be a great deal more pleasant without an arse like him in it.

Who is taking responsibility for the DC when they only actually spend perhaps a twelfth of a day with the dp? When things go wrong? Its all fine while its all fine but basically leaving others to raise your DC?

Mostly the split of working is they df doesn't work around the childcare and DM does? If both do it equally, maybe the DC are at boarding school then both DPs have equalt shot at it, but holidays, who covers them, or do depend their holidays in school too, 'holiday school'. School clubs from 7-7 daily?

Because clearly he would never have had a successful career without her opting to be a full-time housekeeper?

Of course he fucking wouldn't have been able to have the same standard of life/success without his wife taking care of his children. Ffs he has been supported and enabled in his career while hers has taken a hit. And very importantly, his children are flourishing!!

Woman are told to get their ducks in a row before actually leaving which is what he has done with some of it

This is nothing like women being told to ensure they are able to support themselves before leaving. It's the complete opposite!! This woman's career has been on hold while she raises their children. Her career/earning prospects have suffered while he has benefited immensely from her staying at home. And their children still need raising after the separation, he still has a responsibility and he still has to compensate for his wife's sacrifice. It's what is fair and right. SAHPs aren't just sitting around at home waiting for their partners next paycheque to arrive their contributions to the family/household are of equal importance.

There are a great deal of marriages on the prostitution model. It’s the barter of old still thriving today.

*do they spend

@millionscarletroses - Research done at Harvard says otherwise - "In 2015, preliminary results of a groundbreaking study found that the daughters of employed mothers often perform better in their eventual careers than the daughters of stay-at-home moms. Now the full study has been released, and it brings even more good news for the children of working moms: They wind up just as happy in adulthood as the children of moms who stayed home. All told, the two surveys of more than 100,000 men and women across 29 countries revealed how the employment of mothers affects their adult children, both in terms of their own employment as well as how much time they spend at home caring for children and doing housework. As it turns out, the research suggests that girls raised in homes with working mothers are more likely to grow up to have successful careers. Whereas, the sons of working mothers spent more time as adults caring for family members, according to the research"
Not all carers are 19 years old on the minimum wage - we went for a live in Nanny - who was 29 with 8 years of child care experience - when I went back to work. They're not all as you describe. It's easy make a point when you generalise in such a way.

@Smotheroffive I couldn't quite make out your post but are you asking how working parents make sure childcare duties are 50/50? In our case it's not a 50/50 daily split you have to look at the bigger picture at what our jobs can offer. So my husband is military and generally speaking it's a bit trickier and more rigid (though he can take flexible working) he also has to go away a fair bit so on those times I will be doing more than 50/50 obviously. He usually racks up loads of leave when away so he will pick up the "slack" in the holidays. I am a manager certain things like flexible working, leaving work earlier etc are much easier for me to do (so I adjusted my hours to to the school drop off) my husband picks them up, he has a much more generous leave allowance than me so will end up doing more of the holidays (when he's not deployed!) and he will pick them up when they're sick as he doesn't have to work the time back and he's much closer to the school. So it's not 50/50 in terms of I do x days and he does x days, but holistically we take advantage of what is available to us. And it doesn't impact our careers negatively.

Million it sounds like you just married a crappy man. Many women would not marry or partner up with a man who was wilfully unable to share ALL responsibilities - whether that’s one who expected to go to work and do bugger all around the house/with the kids, or one who expected to be a SAHD indefinitely (there is also a thread running to this effect)

I would have considered swapping my DH if I didn’t see other men being exactly the same, + often being a dickhead into the bargain. If I knew I had a good chance of finding a partner who would be a true equal at home, I would have done my best to find him. The men I see are all much of a muchness, I am afraid. And often have unpleasant personality traits my DH doesn’t. So, I don’t think I have done too badly. It never entered either of our heads to keep separate accounts or ‘personal’ money, whether I was breadwinning or he is now.

We share and do our own bit for the good of the family. In my ideal world, I wouldn’t be a SAHM, I will have a caring relative look after my DC while I am at work and have domestic staff do the work at home. In reality, I had my first at 26, so my career was just starting to take off. My DH was retraining at the time. Neither of us had the resources to hire extensive help. We had no family help. And I didn’t want strangers to look after my very young children so I can get on at work. DH looked after our DC for a bit, but sorry he can’t do the job as well as I can. So we each do the bit we can do well.

@MillionScarletRoses

"Sorry he can't do the job as well as I can"

I'm sorry your husband is a bit dull, you really sound like you settled which is a shame for you and your children and I am sure you will realise this one day, but please don't use him as an example for all men, especially if you have a son. If you don't start to put higher expectations on men, you will continue to see the same of the same muchness you describe.

million 99% of the men I know do not resemble the men you describe. They are excellent husbands and fathers and can care for their children just as well as their wives.
Most of the women I know work - either full time or pretty close to it. A number of men I know have been the ones to go part time.
They treat their wives as equals and treat them with respect. And the feeling is mutual.