re school exclusion

[mummy207]

I posted a while back about my DS being inappropriate at school, he asked a teacher to add him on snapchat and was isolated for it. The reactions on here were split between whether this was an overreaction by the school or acceptable. I accepted it and sanctioned him at home and fully supported the school after reading all of your helpful responses. Lots of teachers responded.

Unfortunately today there has been a follow up and I have been told my son needs to be excluded tomorrow and stay at home. I totally agree he is being absolutely unacceptable , he apparently lifted his top up and asked the teacher whether she liked his abs. I know it's fucking insane, don't get me started.

They have said because this is his second "Sexually inappropriate offense" (question whether the snapchat thing was sexually inappropriate!!) , he needs an external exclusion which will go on his record. Although I agree he is in the wrong, this again to me seems really ridiculous. What is making him sit at home all day going to achieve? He will be on xbox! Also some of his peers have had several fights, bullying, etc and not been excluded. Exclusions are really rare. I am absolutely devastated. Is there anything I can do about this? It says on the paperwork I can challenge the exclusion?

@Dontfuckingsaycheese you seem to be very keen to minimise this behaviour - I have a 14 year old son who's pretty normal developmentally. He might, might have asked a teacher that he had a prior good relationship with to connect with him on Instagram (he wouldn't, he'd be far too embarrassed, but it's within the bounds of behaviour). He wouldn't ask them to connect on Snapchat because most teens use Snapchat specifically as a way to send pictures they don't want anyone to see as they disappear afterwards. That's why it's such a red flag that he asked her to connect on that form of social media.

As for you saying he asked her to 'look at his belly' he didn't. He specifically asked her to look at his abs - which (believe me) to teenage boys who work out is their sexual pride and joy. Check out any teen boy's social media page - posing with their abs out is their version of cleavage shots.

Why do you feel the need to minimise his behaviour?

See I don't know the social implications of Snapchat. I'm a 48 year old woman. Should a 15 year old be punished for not knowing the subtle unwritten rules??

It's the 15 year olds writing those rules

I'm not minimising. I'm asking for fairness.

Social media is blurring the lines of appropriateness. Eg the use of emoticons being an appropriate way to add expression to written language. I find myself adding smileys to emails to my uni tutors. They use them too. Even in their assessment feedback. A few years ago that would be considered outrageous. Who now adds kisses to texts to people they a few years ago would not dream of doing. The way we communicate is a shifty concept. We're all learning, reviewing.

As a female secondary teacher, I would refuse to have him in my class. Things can get twisted easily and careers destroyed. He's obviously not making his education top priority so why should she?

Your son is demonstrating he has no respect for women or authority, or possibly just women in authority, his behaviour is deeply inappropriate. Your husband and you need to deal with this properly. And. Now. Not try to over turn the suspension.

And the answer is not remove him from her class, he needs to be able to demonstrate he can control himself and behave appropriately. Not remove him from the situation because he can't be trusted.

If he behaves like this to a teacher, what will he do to girls his age, in the workplace, at uni.

Get it sorted and in no uncertain terms, leave this young man in no doubt his behaviour is unacceptable, there needs to be a heavy sanction at home too, I would suggest grounding for a month and removal of x box and phone for that period.

Another point is that, if this lad is in year 11, he will be applying for college/a job/ an apprenticeship. The school will have to provide a reference detailing attendance, academic achievement, attitude, any exclusions. Good luck with applications once the reference shows he's been sexually harassing a female member of staff. Nobody with any sense will touch him with a bargepole.

The way we communicate is a shifty concept. We're all learning, reviewing.

So if your “uni tutor” invited you to his room, showed you his abs and asked to add you to his social media, would you regard that as a subtle issue you cant’ Understand?

If the buff male pe teacher started showing his abs to your 14 year old daughter and asking for her phone number, you would be puzzled at his subtle behaviour?

If the female member of staff took to wearing low cut tight dresses and invited your son to a special meeting, you would be puzzled?

I don’t believe you. You know full well what flashing sexually-freighted body parts and asking for contact details means. Don’t be so fucking disingenuous.

@Quizzlybear @Dontfuckingsaycheese you seem to be very keen to minimise this behaviour - I have a 14 year old son who's pretty normal developmentally. He might, might have asked a teacher that he had a prior good relationship with to connect with him on Instagram (he wouldn't, he'd be far too embarrassed, but it's within the bounds of behaviour). He wouldn't ask them to connect on Snapchat because most teens use Snapchat specifically as a way to send pictures they don't want anyone to see as they disappear afterwards. That's why it's such a red flag that he asked her to connect on that form of social media.

Last time this OP posted I was absolutely flamed for trying to say that asking to add on Facebook would have been different (not necessarily ok) from Snapchat. People so naive about what Snapchat is still used for. Obviously there are some who don’t use it for that but I’m glad there’s at least one other person who realised the sexual side of it.

Op, my concern here would be your thought process is he has just been stupid, that this exclusion was pointless, and that his behaviour is not as bad as racism or violence.

Sexual harassment is totally unacceptable, and I'd consider the link between your and your husband's minimising views on sexual harassment and the fact you have raised a son who also doesn't see the major issue here.

Hopefully instead of trying to over turn the exclusion all of you can maybe give some somber thought to your own views.

@Whatabloodymessthisis
Exactly my point I think. We can't assume that people (48 year olds or 15 year olds) can appreciate these 'rules'.

See I don't know the social implications of Snapchat. I'm a 48 year old woman.

Nobody would expect you to, since you're not the target Snapchat demographic. I would bet good money that your 16 year old son knows though.

@QuizzlyBear

I have no doubt about that. For me a request to add on Snapchat would merely be considered as inappropriate as any other social media request in terms of school safeguarding/social media policy. I would not feel sexually harassed. So. I would need educating before I deemed that particular form of social media as such. Is it so wrong to expect the same for a child still at school?

Not lifting your shirt and showing your bare chest in class is an easy rule to understand, isn't it?

Two incidents with the same teacher in a short span of time would always be punished and luckily the school is taking this particular incident very serious.

Surely the very obvious difference is, the OPs son uses Snapchat, therefore he knows exactly what it's used for. It's not 'another form of social media' it's a form that he has an account with and uses (hence his request).

If he uses it, it's safe to assume that he's familiar with what teens generally use it for. If he's as sexualised as he sounds from the OPs post, there's little doubt.

Why do you think he's innocent to all this, just because you are?

So would you say a teen new to Snapchat and unaware of of its use 'generally' would not be accused of sexual harassment?? Is it his knowledge of this general use what makes it so?? Would that make the receiver perceive it any differently??

Like I say. Wooly.

I am a young female teacher and I have had his happen to me, granted when less experienced

It was awful, I was embarrased mainly. I did feel intimidated in my class. The school wa supportive. 15 year old boys are also quite often bigger than me, which adds to the intimidation.

Your son deserves what he gets. His teacher should be refusing to have him in the class too. I would be.

So would you say a teen new to Snapchat and unaware of of its use 'generally' would not be accused of sexual harassment

What's the point of this question, the lad in question clearly is a user of the app and aware.

Like I say. Wooly.

Not wooly. He knew what he was doing.

I don't get why you are twisting yourself up trying to excuse his behaviour.

Within a couple of minutes of being on Snapchat you would know what it is about.

But he's 15, he's not new to snapchat. It's also really overstepping the boundaries to ask a teacher to connect with him on social media.

And clearly this is a pattern of behaviour where he is constantly pushing the boundaries with one teacher, targeting her.

If a male teen who (a) used Snapchat (b) invited female teachers to connect with them and (c) could make an even vaguely convincing, or even just coherent, argument as to why they chose Snapchat in ignorance of its properties, actually existed then it might be interesting to discuss their culpability.

But they don’t, so it isn’t Of course the op’s son knew.

A 15 year old knows you don't ask for personal details of a teacher, be that a mobile number, Facebook or Snapchat.

If your asking for something out of the norm, not available to everyone such as school email for example. Your asking for the wrong reasons, otherwise you could go through the lines of communication open to everyone, it's not rocket science.

And the fact of the matter is his subsequent behaviour towards this teacher proves that the school was right in their assessment of the initial situation

I would also strongly suspec this wasn't some shy little lad, new to snapchat thinking it would be sweet to connect with his teacher so he could send her untraceable but lovely photos. That there was behaviour surrounding the incident which has led the school to believe, and as proven correctly that he is publicly sexually harassing his teacher.

@ReflectentMonatomism

See my very point. Your comment "Don’t be so fucking disingenuous" could be considered you contravening Mumsnet rules. But first I would have to know what disingenuous meant and I had to Google it. Before I learned I wasn't offended. After I say I am a little. But is that your fault? Are you now guilty because I know. Were you not before I knew?? Were you guilty because you assumed I did know?? Is that fair on you??

So much of this involves too much assuming.