in-laws with problematic views

[Sleeplessinthecountry]

Have NC for this, and don't want to put much specific/identifying detail. It's more of a WWYD.

DH comes from a different country from where we live, and one where certain sections of society are, even now, completely racist (He is not, even the slightest). I have very strong views on any form of predjudice/racism etc and am not at all afraid to express them if I come across this. I have actually thrown "friends" (now ex-friends) out of my house in the past for expressing homophobic views, for example.

DH has very little contact with his family. He doesn't have any contact at all with some of them and the rest he hasn't seen in many years. He has very little in common with most of them, less so every year that he lives in the country where we live (my home country, where he moved to to be with me, fifteen years ago). He has had a little Facebook contact in recent years with a few of them, stuff like catching up with what has happened to people's kids in adulthood, seeing family snaps, wishing happy Christmas etc.

Over Christmas he had a message from a close (close in blood tie, not in relationship) family member who might be travelling with her husband to where we live and naturally would like to see us. Of course I said great, I have never met any of these people and it would be really interesting. I even said why don't they come and stay with us for a few days. These people are getting on in years and it may be DH's last chance to actually see them (he never travels back to his country of origin).

He then explained to me that I would basically have to bite my tongue if these people were around as they are completely racist, to the point they would be certain to not only be casually be racist in conversation without even realising it is a problem, but also to use language that we would find completely unaccaptable (think the "N word", it's not that word exactly but another word just as offensive if not more so, which is used by true racists in their country). They would even be quite likely to do things like refusing to get on public transport if people of another colour were on it, or to refusing to eat somewhere of people of another colour were also eating. That is the level of racism we are talking about. It sounds shocking to most people but it is still present (although thankfully no longer that widespread) in parts of the country they come from.

I said I was not sure I would be able to promise to keep my tongue in those circumstances. DH understands it's a difficult situation but asked me to do so just this once, these people are his family, he would like to see them after so many years, they would like to see him, they are old and we will not be likely to ever see them again. Could I not just set my beliefs aside for a day or two, in the full knowledge that DH is as appalled by racism as I am?

Bear in mind that DH is a very isolated person, family-wise. His parents have been dead for many years, he is estranged from some of his family, and those he does have contact with, the contact is minimal. I still have both parents, and siblings (they live in other countries from me as well, but we are all very much in contact and see each other when we can). So basically I have family and a feeling of belonging to a heritage and background. He is completely cut off from his and I think that must be very difficult.

WWYD?

The sad thing is that I would dearly love to meet a menber of DH's family, it is so sad that his parents died before I met him and the rest of the family have not really bothered to stay in much contact, and so I have met only a couple of members of his family, and that only years ago and briefly. He does a lot of things with and for my family, and knows them well (even though none of them live in the same country as us, they visit, we have holidays together etc) and it's sad it is not the other way round too.

I wouldn't bite my tongue. I'd tell them not to use that language in my home and DH (from a racist background) would tell his family that those views are not acceptable in decent company over here (wishful thinking maybe, but still).

It's possible of course that they will be just fine and have a perfect understanding how how to behave in front of us, even if that doesn't tally with their private attitudes. I don't know them at all, so I cannot know.

But the fact that DH expressed anxiety about a potential "situation" (knowing from long experience how vociferously I react when confronted by bigoted attitudes of any kind, there have been some colourful scenes over the years) means that I need to come up with some plans of action even if just to allay his anxiety. He must be nervous in about seeing people who are very closely related to him by blood but who he barely knows and has not seen in many years (within the context of a history of plenty of intra-family strife and estrangements in this family). Anxiety about how I will or won't react is the last thing he needs.

My good friend’s soon to be husband’s relatives came over from South Africa for her wedding. There were people from a range of ethnicities at the wedding which took place in London. The older generation relatives from South Africa didn’t hesitate in using really foul racist language openly. It was absolutely appalling.

There are still people in SA, and I know because I've met them, who think that it is scientifically proven fact (and also ordained by God of course) that black people are less intelligent than white people, don't feel the same degree of pain, don't feel the same level of emotions etc etc.

I used to know someone who grew up in SA and came to the UK in the mid-70s. She truly believed that black people had smaller brains and thicker skulls than white people, and cited a servant who fell, bashed her head on a stone sink, didn't hurt herself at all but cracked the sink. She also said that black people couldn't live with in the same areas as white people because they were filthy and lived in disgusting places with open sewers. She would not accept that they didn't have a choice in the matter.

It doesn't surprise me at all that this attitude still prevails with older people. I'd have them to stay, but explain that racism and using racist language is deeply frowned upon, is something you can get arrested for, and that they will have to mix with black people when out and about without making any comment.

If they really are as racist as your DH thinks, I tremble for them if their plan is to travel around the country before you see them. They seriously risk being attacked, arrested or both. Have they thought their plans through properly?

Just calmly tell them--if they voice these opinions - that they need to stop: it's not considered acceptable under any circumstances in the UK.

There's no point arguing with them: just shut the conversation down each and every time. (And if necessary, point out that they could risk prosecution in the UK for voicing those opinions, although possibly not, as the concept of "hate speech" will probably cause other unsavoury opinions)

If they are Afrikaner, then they will have grown up with white superiority like a literally preached from the pulpit, so, as I say, really not worthwhile or likely to be productive trying to discuss and undermine their beliefs, rather than just showing there's no tolerance for them.

They may even be in danger of committing a hate crime, and I am sure they would not like to be arrested on holiday!

I really think that would be going a little far in the tips I'd give to tourists visiting Britain. Normally I just tell people to stand on the right on escalators and try to get the front seats on the top deck of a double decker bus.

How many racist outbursts do you really think your husband's relations are going to pack into a two-day stay with you, OP? If you are really that worried about them perhaps you can give them the itinerary of the next march in support of Tommy Robinson. It sounds like that they might like it.

Otherwise I think you are over-reacting.

I agree with pp's, especially Hefzi
There's no chance of getting through to them, just shut them down politely but firmly.
What's the reason for the trip?

@Sleeplessinthecountry You cannot throw somebody out for having a different opinion to you 🤦🏼‍♀️

I don't think "racist outbursts" are the problem, limitedperiodonly. It's more that ingrained racism can pop up all over the place - the use of terms like the N word, sneering at people of the wrong colour on TV, in the newspapers or on the streets, making assumptions about their intelligence/cleanliness, being rude to people they encounter, etc etc.

Plus, although they will only be with OP for two days, it seems to be part of a longer visit travelling around the country, which all sounds a bit risky.

Mummylife, surely the OP can throw anyone out of her house for any reason she likes?

Saturday I would be surprised if they were planning to "travel about" much. They have only mentioned a single village which is not near any big city, and wondered if we lived anywhere near there. Usually when people are coming to this part of the world they would mention they are coming to the big city we live on the outskirts of, as that's why most people would be coming here, but they didn't, so I wonder whether they are just planning to go to this village (for whatever reason, I can't imagine what it is and they have not said yet). Would be very odd though...

LakieLady and GreenGlass, exactly. I think a lot of people who have not encountered this type of South Africans would not actually believe the things they truly believe, and are quite happy to say. The thick skull thing is one I have personally heard more than once and the shocking thing is that they are not saying it with conscious malicious intent, but just an an accepted "scientific fact". Even, I have certainly heard, portrayed as an advantage for the "thick-skulled" ones, who presumably then have a greater chance of surviving a head injury. The underlying implication you are supposed to absorb is "I am not being derogatory, but admiring, if only we all had such thick skulls" (while of course wishing for no such thing and being utterly racist).

The examples are too many to mention, but for anyone who thinks these attitudes don't survive in the modern world, think again. Another one is "you must not educate "them" too much because it is not good for their brain, "they" are "evolved" to hunt on the veld/live as gatherers in the desert etc not sit indoors studying, that is just cruel to them, and we wouldn't want to be cruel would we?".

Yes, I don't think "outbursts" are going to be the issue necessarily, more just completely pervasive (and unconscious) racism.

The wedding guests I spoke about repeatedly used the term “flat noses” in relation to black wedding guests

I ended up leaving early because they were so obnoxious

Like Hefzi and Obsidian said, just shut them down. You won't change them and it will be unpleasant but they will soon go home.

Limited, I am not "over-reacting", I am looking to make plans for my own potential reaction to racist things they may just casually say in social conversation. Because I know very well how I react to such things. Others may be able to brush them off/bite their tongue etc. I know full well would be unlikely to be able to do that. Hence the mulling it over in order to come up with a plan.

If you think it is "over-reacting" to expect that elderly rural Afrikaners from the area they live in, who have never travelled anywhere, may well say something I will find totally unaccaptable, I am afraid you are sadly and regrettably wrong. DH tells me that when he last knew these people (admittedly fifteen years ago) their use of the "K-word" was completely ubiquitous in their conversation (and they would probably not even have thought it offensive, think for example of how Americans in the 40s might have spoken of "negroes" without any sense of that being any sort of problem). These are people who would refer to their house servant as "the house-k" and the gardener as "the garden-k" without any thought at all that this might be a problem. (As I say, I have not met these specific people but I have known many like them, and if DH tells me what they were like I have no reason to disbelieve him).

They sound just like the vile people I encounter tweed at the wedding OP

Eh Mummylife ? I can and have certainly thrown people out of my house for having a "different opinion" from me. The man (also a South African sadly) who told me in my own kitchen that all homosexuals should be allowed to die of AIDS because it was a judgement from God certainly didn't get to stay long after that remark.

Tweed?? What the??? Should say encountered at the wedding

Your DH should make it clear what is not acceptable in the UK. Racist remarks may be the main one but not the only one.

Sad for anyone to have relatives with the views that DH's family have.

Well tell him you don't want them round then. I don't know what else to suggest if you are sure they are going to come out with these things in front of you and that as a result you will react to them, and possibly throw them out. You are just setting yourself up for an argument - either with him now or with them later, but that's what's going to happen.

From what I have been told they is a high risk they will say something I find unacceptable, hence my wanting to put a plan in place. I wanted to se if there is some plan that does not mean that DH cannot get to meet the only family members he will have met in fifteen years (and may never meet again). Of course I can say I don't want them here, and he would respect that (maybe meeting them on his own) but I am trying to explore whether there is a less nuclear option (telling people in your family that your wife refuses to meet them is never going to have a happy ending, is it?) I am hoping there is another plan, for his sake.

I agree with all the people who have said that DH is going to have to speak to them in advance. The next step will probably depend on how they react to that.

My mother is a nice, middle-class, 60-something English lady (and recently retired teacher) who believes, and is open about her belief, that only white women experience love for their children. I remember as a teenager watching news footage of the aftermath of an earthquake, and one particular woman who was howling in unbearable grief as her dead child was taken out of the rubble. I was about to turn to my mother and say that I thought the footage was too intrusive and that the woman deserved to grieve in private, when my mother got in first with a cheerful comment about Nature controlling the population in "these places". Glancing at her, I could see that she was totally unaffected, even smug.

(I'm afraid that I don't have any advice for the OP, just sympathy!)