in-laws with problematic views

[Sleeplessinthecountry]

Have NC for this, and don't want to put much specific/identifying detail. It's more of a WWYD.

DH comes from a different country from where we live, and one where certain sections of society are, even now, completely racist (He is not, even the slightest). I have very strong views on any form of predjudice/racism etc and am not at all afraid to express them if I come across this. I have actually thrown "friends" (now ex-friends) out of my house in the past for expressing homophobic views, for example.

DH has very little contact with his family. He doesn't have any contact at all with some of them and the rest he hasn't seen in many years. He has very little in common with most of them, less so every year that he lives in the country where we live (my home country, where he moved to to be with me, fifteen years ago). He has had a little Facebook contact in recent years with a few of them, stuff like catching up with what has happened to people's kids in adulthood, seeing family snaps, wishing happy Christmas etc.

Over Christmas he had a message from a close (close in blood tie, not in relationship) family member who might be travelling with her husband to where we live and naturally would like to see us. Of course I said great, I have never met any of these people and it would be really interesting. I even said why don't they come and stay with us for a few days. These people are getting on in years and it may be DH's last chance to actually see them (he never travels back to his country of origin).

He then explained to me that I would basically have to bite my tongue if these people were around as they are completely racist, to the point they would be certain to not only be casually be racist in conversation without even realising it is a problem, but also to use language that we would find completely unaccaptable (think the "N word", it's not that word exactly but another word just as offensive if not more so, which is used by true racists in their country). They would even be quite likely to do things like refusing to get on public transport if people of another colour were on it, or to refusing to eat somewhere of people of another colour were also eating. That is the level of racism we are talking about. It sounds shocking to most people but it is still present (although thankfully no longer that widespread) in parts of the country they come from.

I said I was not sure I would be able to promise to keep my tongue in those circumstances. DH understands it's a difficult situation but asked me to do so just this once, these people are his family, he would like to see them after so many years, they would like to see him, they are old and we will not be likely to ever see them again. Could I not just set my beliefs aside for a day or two, in the full knowledge that DH is as appalled by racism as I am?

Bear in mind that DH is a very isolated person, family-wise. His parents have been dead for many years, he is estranged from some of his family, and those he does have contact with, the contact is minimal. I still have both parents, and siblings (they live in other countries from me as well, but we are all very much in contact and see each other when we can). So basically I have family and a feeling of belonging to a heritage and background. He is completely cut off from his and I think that must be very difficult.

WWYD?

My DM had this with my grandmother’s racist (British, living overseas) boyfriend: she pulled him up the first and second time. He didn’t make further remarks during his visit.

Maybe your dh should explain to them that you live in a multi-cultural city and that they shouldnt visit you if they wouldnt be comfortable with that.

Why worry about “alienating” them or pissing them off? If they get pissed off, so be it.

The thing is, even if you never risk them going out of your house, they are going to encounter people of different races at the airport and on their travels generally. If they really are going to have no boundaries in terms of using the equivalent of the N word and treating people like vermin, they do run the risk of being arrested. Your DH needs to have a very strong word with them indeed.

So far as you are concerned, I would make it clear to your DH that although you would not chuck them out or make any sort of scene, if they show racism in your presence you would have to be permitted to remind them, gently but firmly, that it is not acceptable, and to tell them why.

You don't have to argue or fall out but you can still correct them.
If they don't want to eat at a certain place, tell them there's no alternative as you live in a multi cultural society.
Sit down, eat and they can do without.
Or suggest your dh cooks for them every night.

warn them that public racist comments could find them facing police & charges - but surely - ( as most people I assume SA) - things have changed so radically there that they would have difficulty avoiding different ethnic groups?

I wouldn't have them staying at home – let them find their own accommodation and your DH (and you, if you feel so inclined) can go and see them out and about.

It's fine for him to want to see his relatives and great that you want to support that connection, but you can't / shouldn't walk out of your own home to get a break.

Maintain somewhere to escape to, at least.

I lived in South Africa during apartheid and returned to visit more recently,
after it had become a democracy, and was struck by how much nicer Afrikaners had become in the intervening period.
(Remember the 80s Spitting Image song 'I've never met a nice South African? It was not totally exaggerated....)
The country has changed a lot.
That said, some ultra-right, ultra-white pockets still exist, former bastions of the Afrikaner Broederbond or National Party. They are extremely racist, routinely using K- and M- words to describe black and coloured (the SA term) people.
So my guess would be that they're South African.

oops - cross-posted.

Oh, in response to another question: they are not planning to come just to see us. They just mentioned in a message to DH that they may be coming to this country and asked how far X village (where they are travelling to) is from Y village (where we live). I have no idea yet why they would be going to X village, it is not exactly a tourist destination, it's an hour's drive from where I live and I had never heard of it!

OP, yes, that's all relevant and I fully believe you. But what about the fact that they've never been abroad before? So they've never had to hang out in an airport, get on a plane etc? They are already going to be confronting multiple situations before they even get to you, if they can't control themselves they're in danger of being thrown off the plane! They may be seated next to people of other colours, checked in by them, served sandwiches by them, this isn't going to go well long before they even arrive, is it? Because the minute they're out of their bubble they're in a fabulously multi-cultural world and it's a long journey...

I suppose I don't want to alienate them because DH has such tenous contact with any family so it would be a big thing for him. In fifteen years of him being here hardly anyone has bothered to stay in contact at all, and I think that is very hard for him.

X-posted. Weird that they're coming at all, isn't it? There must be a reason.

I had a SA friend and she definitely was not racist. She trained as a dietician and helped the poor. Not all white South Africans are racist. I met a Brit living in SA on the train once and he was very racist. I was appalled.

If I had adult children I would be ok to put up with the relatives. But not with a 9 yo. Why doesn’t your dh go away with them for a couple of days as a “tour guide” for them?

Yes, I suppose they will have by default had a bit of an education in the world by the time they get to my door. So their behaviour in public actually will probably be OK. But even so, seventy years of extreme racism is not going to cured by a couple of encounters, and I guess my main concern is not what they will do but what they will say. Not in public but in my company.

I have found from bitter experience that racist people who have travelled very little have no idea that their attitudes might be a problem to other peopke of the same race, even though they know perfectly well that they are to people of other races. Many times I have encountered people who can behave fine if there are lot of different people around, but in a small group of people who all happen to be white, they just asume racist attitudes/jokes/slurs etc are completely unremarkable. (Similar to men making sexist jokes or comments when there are only other men about and thinking that is totally fine because there are no women there to be offended).

Oh absolutely not all white South Africans are racist! I have been maried to two of them and they most certainly are not!

I have family members I have to bite my tongue with. My line is that I don’t stay quiet if my child is present. Even then I make a quick, but definitive statement to the contrary and then change the subject. I then have a conversation with my child afterwards.

Not being in the presence of non-white people is going to be a challenge. How are they even planning to travel?

I have found from bitter experience that racist people who have travelled very little have no idea that their attitudes might be a problem to other peopke of the same race, even though they know perfectly well that they are to people of other races. Many times I have encountered people who can behave fine if there are lot of different people around, but in a small group of people who all happen to be white, they just asume racist attitudes/jokes/slurs etc are completely unremarkable. (Similar to men making sexist jokes or comments when there are only other men about and thinking that is totally fine because there are no women there to be offended). Ah, yes, I think that's a very good analysis of how people behave. You've got a very awkward task on your hands for sure. I have long dead relatives with vile attitudes that I now wish I'd been more confrontational with but I didn't have the confidence at the time. I think a bit of calm and honest feedback won't go amiss if you can stay calm. I honestly wouldn't worry too much about your nine-year old though, I think it's an opportunity to have a good conversation with him/her about the fact that people with awful attitudes do exist but sometimes we need to be bigger than they are and be kind and tolerant towards them while not condoning their views - I think at nine that's a useful exploration to have.

I'd make it clear to my DH that I will not bridle my tongue and will call them out on inappropriate comments in no uncertain terms. If they won't get on a bus because of another passenger, then I'm going to leave them standing at the stop! Then let him make the decision. But if he decides to let them come understanding my condition, he'd better not apologize for me behind my back or try to downplay if I call them out or there will be hell to pay.

There is no rule of hospitality that says we must throw our sense of decency and morality out the window when a guest walks in the door. I don't care who or how old that guest is.

Sorry that post about not all sa being racist was general.

God it's unbelievable in this day and age. My Dad used to say racist things but he has been dead 30 years and I think it was because he had no experience or involvement with anyone of colour, he was a very kind and gentle man.

No. No, no, no. To all of it.

If it doesn’t get called out EACH AND EVERY TIME, family or not, nothing will change.

If you think your DH’s alienation from his family might be tough, think for a second how tough life was for black people under apartheid. No no no.

As for even considering biting your tongue just once when your 9yo might notice. Just once is enough for that 9yo to assume it’s okay to think like that amongst family.

No to biting your tongue at home or anywhere. That would be my condition to having them anywhere near me or my children.

Some people live very closeted lives if they think issues of open racism doesn't exist in cities.

My own experience is that racism can occur anywhere. However the kind of casual, conversational racism that is being discussed itt is something you encounter in places where people don't feel the need to check over their shoulder before saying something outrageous

I agree to an extent, 7salmon, that is why if they are going to come, DH is going to have to talk to them in advance. I won't be able to hold my tongue ccompletely. I told him that.

But talking about how "things won't change", these particular people are not likely to change. I don't know them specifically, but I have known many of their "type". They are old, and one week or whatever in the real world might make them think a little but they ae not going to radically alter their beliefs, or really understand deep down that they are in a problem...

I do know what it was like under apartheid, I lived there for twenty years, all of them during apartheid. (I am not saying I know first hand what it was like to be black under apartheid, because I am white, but my specific profession means that I had a great deal of contact with some of the worst effects of apartheid).

Absolutely your DH should speak to them before they travel, just to let them know a bit about the country they are visiting, the demographics, and how racist views are not tolerated (and could be highly dangerous) in public. He should be clear that you will not tolerate racist views being expressed in your home, and certainly not in front of your child. They can then decide whether they still want to stay in your home.

You never know, they may not even make it over here. They're bound to encounter a 'person of colour' somewhere - immigration/airport/aeroplane - so perhaps they'll decide not to travel.