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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

James Bulger

567 replies

Monty27 · 03/01/2019 07:32

Hang your head in shame Vincent Lambre.
You low life creep.
Anyone?

OP posts:
Augusta2012 · 04/01/2019 08:50

Liberal is exactly the right term for the people I’m referring to politically.

Augusta2012 · 04/01/2019 09:11

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

DeepanKrispanEven · 04/01/2019 09:14

Dastardly, the article in question fully supports and explains what I am saying about the nature of opinion. The interesting thing is that you don't realise that.

DeepanKrispanEven · 04/01/2019 09:21

Augusta, guess what, I saw the documentaries at the time, and self-evidently I have dealt with the issue of the media portrayal of Denise Fergus (who incidentally it is a bit rude to keep referring to by her first name only). Please don't make accusations that you must know you cannot stand up. Trying to claim that the word "constantly" is justified by two examples is, frankly, an abuse of language.

As you seem unable to discuss this on a calm, factual basis without the free use of personal abuse and breaches of clear MN guidelines, I'm really not going to engage further with you.

ADastardlyThing · 04/01/2019 09:22

Then I guess we are saying the same thing Deepan? As the article also supports what I'm saying about opinions :)

Hope you have a good day.

QuackPorridgeBacon · 04/01/2019 09:34

Do psychopaths really only come from severely dysfunctional families?

From what I’ve read and heard, psychopaths seem to have something different that makes them kill, this can be determined by uprbringing. So, someone can be a psychopath but have a loving and supportive family and grow up to lack emotion etc but able to function and without the urge to do harm. Those who have trauma from a very young age, will have those urges at some point but also won’t be able to understand other people’s emotions. Some will have trauma when a little older, so they can understand to some extent most emotions, they also go on to have awful thoughts etc regarding harming people. Now, I’m not sure how accurate all of this is I haven’t fully looked into it but it makes sense somewhat. I feel very desensitised when I read up on abuse, reading it makes me feel sad and some things can make me shed a tear but on the whole I can read, look at and listen to awful things and be able to continue my day and not think about it. I could put that down to my childhood and the trauma I suffered, although it could just be that I’m one of those people are aren’t too affected or I’ve read too much and it won’t shock me the way it would have.

777magic · 04/01/2019 09:37

How anyone could humanise those murderers, is beyond me. They committed brutal and horrific sexual abuse on james and they should have been jailed for life.

IrmaFayLear · 04/01/2019 10:48

I agree that snippy little "links please" posts are just saying "I'm not going to believe you" fingers in ears. I can't remember exactly what subject was under discussion - Cologne sexual attacks I think - but I spent ages painstakingly linking newspaper reports etc for a poster who kept denying they happened and just constantly posted "links please" .

Anyway, having spent way too much time on Reddit I've seen how in Making a Murderer the victim's family have somehow found themselves - by refusing to cooperate with the documentary makers - painted as complicit in the crime, or responsible, and the victim herself accused of loose morals or even faking her own death.

I am fearful that if this documentary gets Oscar-level coverage that we might get a tide of anti-establishment nutcases deciding that Thompson and Venables are some kind of wronged heroes.

Samcro · 04/01/2019 10:56

odd that threads about this brutal murder always end up talking about the murderers, never the victim or his family.

its almost like they don't count, or have been sidelined from their own life/story.
imo it victim blaming at it worst.

FayFortune · 04/01/2019 11:08

Augusta I had never read that Charlotte Raven piece before.
I'm grateful that you linked that.

FayFortune · 04/01/2019 11:14

Fairylea I share some of your background and experiences growing up. The one boy certainly always sounded to me like he came from a normal enough background.

potatoscone · 04/01/2019 12:12

Rather interesting that Augusta has had so many posts deleted by MNHQ.

FayFortune · 04/01/2019 12:14

It's a shame that the links were deleted.

FayFortune · 04/01/2019 12:17

. I really don't judge according to MN deletion policy.

They make their own rules which is fine, doesn't mean I think they are in fact good arbiters.

CheeseToastie123 · 04/01/2019 13:07

Somebody further up cites Dahmer and Bundy as examples of people who grew up in loving stable homes. This is absolutely not true. Understanding the background of people who commit depraved acts does not excuse them. Feeling sympathy for all concerned is the humane reaction to the Bulger case.

Augusta2012 · 04/01/2019 13:48

potatoscone it was because of the personal attacks because I called a poster who was lying a liar. Don’t you bloody dare accuse me of being dishonest about this, I posted extensive links which have been deleted to back myself up and was still being whinged at because I hadn’t provided a fully annotated essay style post.

Some posters on this thread

mikado1 · 04/01/2019 13:51

Samcro how is it victim blaming?! No one has put blame on James or his mum, how could they? The focus oven reverts to JV and RT because there's so much to query and question and probably so much unknown; they will never be interviewed etc.

There's always a question mark over JV's background - was the earlier link referring to the nursery child rocking back and forth him? That sounds v disturbing. A depressed mother also can be deeply effecting. Who knows.. it's a devastating story and a living nightmare each day for Denise Fergus and family.

Butchyrestingface · 04/01/2019 14:01

The more cynical might think you were in some way connected with this film, OP, trying to drum up publicity for it. Although perhaps MN is not the best vehicle for this kind of advertising...

I have no interest in seeing it, but the director is doing nothing wrong in trying to strip away some of the hyperbole and "humanise" the perpetrators. They are human beings, and were children at the time of their crimes.

Helmetbymidnight · 04/01/2019 14:11

but the director is doing nothing wrong in trying to strip away some of the hyperbole and "humanise" the perpetrators. They are human beings, and were children at the time of their crimes

I strongly disagree: he’s not a psychologist, he’s not a family member, he didn’t approach the families, he’s a voyeur, a hanger-on, it’s too soon- the idea that it will help us understand, is, IMO, just shoe-horned in there to give his nasty little project legitimacy.

Butchyrestingface · 04/01/2019 14:15

I strongly disagree: he’s not a psychologist, he’s not a family member, he didn’t approach the families, he’s a voyeur, a hanger-on, it’s too soon- the idea that it will help us understand, is, IMO, just shoe-horned in there to give his nasty little project legitimacy.

Fair enough, you disagree. I disagree with your disagreeing. Since I'm won't be watching it, I won't be able to come back and update as to whether I think your take on his motives is correct.

Augusta2012 · 04/01/2019 14:44

Some posters on this thread have been repeatedly being rude and saying I was lying. Even after I posted links they carried on doing it and claiming that some half remembered anecdote from 1998 was authoritative and the multiple respectable sources I posted were worthless.

This is part of the problem with the film. It is not seeking to explain or understand. He has not spoken to anybody involved, he has no insight. He is attempting to impose his own imagined narrative on events rather than seeking to shed new light on it.

This happened in another form after the trial when there was a bit of a moral panic about “video nasties” being to blame which they weren’t. Of course that was mainly in tabloids so I’m sure that the people who’ve defended this film would be aghast.

The film is no bloody different though. It’s just an attempt to impose a narrative on the case which makes people feel more comfortable but has very little relationship with reality, it’s just a scenario a certain type of person wants to be true.

The reality is that the people who actually surrounded the case admit the investigation and the trial only established the facts and never asked the question “Why?” which was, I think most of them would admit now, was probably a mistake, particularly because they massively underestimated JV’s capacity for manipulation.

Thompson did truly have an awful and horrendous childhood but the rush to wrap up the case without asking too many difficult questions meant RT’s childhood was blamed and JV’s actions were put down to him being dominated by RT and a mildly dysfunctional family.

And it was a mistake as far as Venables was concerned. Mary Berry, Robert Thompson, the two boys in Edlington. Those four children were brought up in appalling situations where the most horrific abuse was so completely normalised and frequent it would have been like other children view having their dinner.

All of them have been rehabilitated. By all accounts all four of them, once removed from an awful situation, were completely changed children and apparently flourished living blameless lives with some success.

Venables was just tacked into this narrative on the basis of very, very flimsy links and a lot of finger pointing at Thompson as the ringleader because anything else was just too uncomfortable.

He certainly wasn’t a child whose background was so awful that violence and abuse was routine and he did know right from wrong.

So it shouldn’t have been that much of a shock that removing him from his home situation didn’t make much difference to his behaviour because it wasn’t the cause.

Venables has just become a sacred cow of the left. He’s almost 40, he’s been caught twice looking at the worst grade of child sexual exploitation images which usually includes children being tortured, hurt or the involvement of animals. He’s had millions spent on him trying to help and rehabilitate him and it’s not worked.

It’s not worked because, in his case, the softly, softly, blame it all on his childhood trauma method hasn’t worked because it wasn’t the cause and nobody aside from Denise Fergus ever really challenged that. And she has repeatedly been proven right.

She thinks he won’t stop until he kills again. I’m inclined to agree with her.

Augusta2012 · 04/01/2019 14:48

This reply has been deleted

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ADastardlyThing · 04/01/2019 14:55

I think pitching this as trying to understand more keeps people feeling warm and cosy at night. No one wants to think that two 10 year olds were brutal enough on their own to carry it out, so understanding it and blaming it on something else keeps the nasty feeling that actually, they just might have been, at bay. there will always be people like this filmmaker taking advantage of that.

More understanding is needed, but I think that should be the job of professionals. Not entertainers. (I use that word very loosely regarding this particular person)

SweetLathyrus · 04/01/2019 15:27

Helmetbymidnight, but you have seen the film. You haven't met/spoken to the director or anyone connected with it

User758172 · 04/01/2019 15:41

@Zoflorabore

Regardless of whether it’s the aftermath of the crime or otherwise, James Bulger’s murder is not something which should be exploited for the gain of academic qualifications in drama!

What is it were your son? Would you rest comfortably in the knowledge that teenagers where dramatising the events surrounding it in order to gain GCSE’s - something James Bulger never had the opportunity to do?

The fact that it happened before your son was born is utterly irrelevant. James may not be alive - what about his mother? What about his father?

If your child was taken from you in the most brutal way I’m sure you wouldn’t rest easy knowing his memory was being ‘used’ in this way.

For shame! For shame.