To not know what to do about DS18 being vile to DD15

[Railwaychildren]

DS 18 and DD 15 have never been close, I don’t know why, we’ve brought them up the same, tried to treat the both of them equally etc but DS just will not tolerate DD at all.
I can’t really remember when this started, DS was ok when he was little and she came along, being a boy and a girl they’ve always had separate interests and toys but they used to play together occasionally etc.
The last few years DS has become considerably worse towards DD. He will hardly look at her, won’t speak to her apart from maybe one word and will treat her with total disdain. He’s actually become like it to DH and I over the last year or so too.
He’s an intelligent, nice lad and he’s not been any trouble. He’s always felt he was the ‘top dog’ academically of the pair of them but he’s had a shock this last year as after flying his GCSEs he absolutely bombed his AS levels as he simply didn’t put any work in. He became disdainful of DH and I and wouldn’t listen, telling us we didn’t know what we were talking about etc. Well the proof was in the pudding when he failed last August. As we knew he wasn’t putting the work in and preferring to spend all his time online gaming we insisted he got a PT job to keep his car running (that we bought, paid for lessons and helped insure). This PT job then became the reason he failed his AS levels of course, it was our fault.
Luckily he was offered a brilliant apprenticeship in the summer and we more or less insisted he took it rather than waste time resitting his AS levels and bumming around - he had absolutely no plans to go to university so we felt that this was the best option for him. It’s a fantastic opportunity with a huge global company with brilliant prospects. He goes every day but won’t tell us what he’s doing and share anything abou it at all. He just grunts at us, spends time in his room gaming when he’s not in work or out in his car. It feels like he’s punishing us for something (probably as we got firm over the AS levels) but he has everything! A lovely home, stable family etc. He’s 18 and wants to be treated like an adult but he barely acts like one.

So, back to DD, she gets a bit upset that he’s so dismissive but however hard she tries to be kind to him he will not engage. Today, things have come to a head - we live semi rurally and DS has gone out in his car. DD is here and is bored so asked if she could go on his Xbox to be able to game with her friend. He text almost immediately to me to demand that she gets off it. I explained that she would be careful and that she wasn’t hurting, I asked him to be kind and allow her to play as we are a little cut off - it’s how he mostly talks to his friends! So surely he’d understand? No, she’s to get off it and he’s putting a PIN on it when he gets home.

I feel so sad that he’s like this. I am so close to my siblings I can’t imagine being so vile just for the sake of it. There’ll be world war 3 now when he gets home and no doubt the silent treatment of me for days for allowing her on it. How to handle this? I’m at a loss.

I wouldn't allow my DD to be treated with distain, that has to stop ASAP. He treats her with respect or he gets out.

"she gets a bit upset that he’s so dismissive but however hard she tries to be kind to him he will not engage"

Your setting her up for shit relationships in the future. She has a right to be treated decently ams she should be taught to dismiss someone, who dismisses her.

Step in when she tries to be kind, he doesn't deserve it.

He isn't a nice lad. Do you actually say this in front of your DD? That will make her feel even more shit.

For all the positive posts on here, there will be many more who are LC with the Parents who have let their Brother treat them like dirt and make excuses.

It’s very very likely the DD has her own gamer tag - from the sounds of it her brother won’t be friends with her friends! She probably couldn’t care less what her brother says on Facebook or whatever.

Juelles

There is very little difference between a laptop and an Xbox or playstation these days. Some days I don't even turn my laptop on any more. I just use my ps4 for everything.

I agree, his attitude stinks. However, reading through your post a few things stuck out at me.

' we insited he get a job ' and you insisted he took on the apprenticeship. If you want him to act like an adult, you need to treat him like one. Even if that means he makes mistakes, their his to make. He's very lucky that you bought him a car and it was very generous, letting him come to his own conclusions abot how he wasbl going to keep it running might have worked better as then it would be his choice and not yours, which is obviously the way he sees it as you were getting the blame for him having to do it and failing his exams (not your fault).

The Xbox thing is probably an extension of that. His choices need to be respected and his voice heard, work on the relationship with Dd in other ways. It's such a difficult age for them both, so might just be one of those things.

I agree with UnderHerEye . I have two dds and one is kinder about sharing than the other, but i would go mad if the non-sharer was this mean. He sounds fairly typical for 18 but that doesn’t mean you have to go along with it.
I am also a younger sibling and my relationship with my brother was most conflicted when he was 14-17 , at 17-18 he suddenly saw me in a different light, and started being a bit more generous, and he was far nicer once he left home. For those mid teen years he would put me down constantly. I think your son needs to grow up a bit, and that hopefully his relationship with his sister will improve no end once they are a few years older.
Have some op. Teenagers are hard work.

I wouldn't allow my DD to be treated with distain, that has to stop ASAP. He treats her with respect or he gets out.

But it's fine and dandy to treat DS without respect?! Toxic much.

we more or less insisted he took it rather than waste time resitting his AS levels

I’m sure that did wonders for his self esteem.

The not getting on & his attitude is his age, finishing education and not really knowing his place in the world but you really haven’t helped matters by letting your DD into his personal space.

Op he doesn't have to share his Xbox, but while he is under your roof his awful disrespectful behaviour towards you, dh and DD has to improve...he may not like DD or respect you or dh...but while living under your roof, he has to behave in a civil way, there is no excuse for behaving like that, if I'd have behaved that way, my parents would have gone batshit at me (I'm 36 and I have 6 siblings)...he has to learn that he may not like people but he has to learn to get along with them otherwise how will ever cope in the real world, in a workplace for example?..because if he was as disrespectful at work as he is at home he wouldn't last a day...

Do what you need to do to reign in his behaviour, it's your house, your rules...if he doesn't like it he is free to move out and pay his own way and live by his own rules

Is he even paying rent OP? If he is going to act like a child around his sister then treat him like one and change the WiFi password.

Posters saying, 'It's his X box - you have no right,' must be raising their children to be selfish, unempathetic little gits. You have every right (and duty imo) to encourage your DS to treat his sister with kindness, compassion and generosity.

When my DC start being unreasonably cruel or dismissive of eachother, I mirror them. I take it right back to the kind of parenting I did when they were toddlers and say: Look me in the eye. If you had used my [mention something of yours he uses often without asking first] and I'd responded by [copy his distainful voice and look] saying 'No. You can't and I'm putting a lock on it' what would you think of me? What kind of person? And don't let him wriggle out of answering. It works. They have to be made to see how they are behaving.

Sorry no real advice but there’ll be a 3 year 9 month gap between my DS and DD and I’m so worried that they won’t be close because the gap is just so big! But then I guess the same could happen with a closer age too! 🤷‍♀️

I think it's normal to an extent. Growing up, every older brother I knew was horrible to his younger sister. It isn't rare, in my experience. Hopefully it will improve as they get older.

I have no idea why the first few responses were so horrible OP.
You sound very caring and lovely and I can completely see why this upsets you so
Much.

I would expect my kids to share their Xbox (in fact they do as we only have one and they even share an account) but maybe asking him first would have been better.

But the other stuff- sorry but he is being very entitled and I would have to say something very strongly if he was mine

DS the world does not owe you anything. You are loved and given opportunity and many benefits (car,Xbox etc) but your distain and rudeness towards the other people in this family has to stop.
If you hate us and hate being around us then move out. Until then, we aren’t asking you to spend all your time with us or even to like us if you so wish but you will treat us with mutual respect and be civil and thoughtful about the fact we have to exist in this space. Grow. Up.

Fact is he has had a rather big fall from grace hasn’t he with failing his exams and from being a bit of a know it all highly confident teenager he’s rather dropped off the pedestal and probably is angry and disappointed with himself, maybe even worried about his future. That said he doesn’t sound like he was an easy character before that. A few home truths might do him good in the long run.

For sure when he gets back fo not let him kick off and be an arse. You can say sorry you let DD use it without permission but no harm done and it does not warrant any nastiness or rudeness when he returns

And I’d DEFINITELY second changing the wifi code until he learns some decency.

All sounds like normal teenage behaviour to me. What's the problem here?

Where is the X box?

Have you unilaterally allowed your 15 year old to sit in her 18 year old brother's room playing on his X box without asking him?

Is this typical of you not giving him any privacy and giving his younger sibling access to his space and possessions?

My parents insisted I always include my younger sister - she used to set up camp in my doorway when I had a friend over and sleep in my doorway if I had a rare sleepover, and I had to let her. She used to make cruel comments about my body and I wasn't allowed to retaliate because I was older and should make allowances. She'd jump on me from the back of the sofa if I was reading then cry and it'd be me in the wrong for ignoring her ...

My parents think they treated us the same because they spent the same amount of money on us.

There's no better way to make an older sibling resent a younger than constantly allowing the younger to invade the older's privacy and making the older responsible for the youngest's happiness.

It's your choice to live remotely - your DD's boredom and isolation is on you and your partner, not her brother.

I've not spent more than a week at my parents since I turned 18, and have very little contact with that sister, who is still quite dependant on my parents in her 40s..

Your DS is an adult but reading your initial post this is what jumped out at me:

"The last few years DS has become considerably worse He’s actually become like it to DH and I over the last year or so too."

"He became disdainful of DH and I and wouldn’t listen, telling us we didn’t know what we were talking about etc. Well the proof was in the pudding when he failed last August."

"we insisted he got a PT job"
"he was offered a brilliant apprenticeship in the summer and we more or less insisted he took it - he had absolutely no plans to go to university so we felt that this was the best option for him."

"It feels like he’s punishing us for something (probably as we got firm over the AS levels) "

"but he has everything! A lovely home, stable family etc. He’s 18 and wants to be treated like an adult but he barely acts like one."

"DD is here and is bored so asked if she could go on his Xbox to be able to game with her friend. He text almost immediately to me to demand that she gets off it."

Firstly he is a normal teenager - hormones and all, trying to find out who he is as an individual. Which is very difficult when you become an adult and have to live at home.

Next - you are treating him like a child, insisting he gets a part-time job, insisiting he takes the apprentaship, what about what he wants?

However on the flip side he need to respect those around him. But how can he when you treat him like a little boy. You have just done it again by giving his little sister permission to use his personal things without his permission..... you do not respect his boundaries, how can he respect yours.

Time to sit down and have adult conversations about adult responsibilities and respect.

You need to apologise for the xbox error, and use that as a starting point for asking what he considers reasonable boundaries. Then you need to have pre-agreed with your husband what is reasonable boundaries for the family home. Basic politeness is essential,, but going above and being forced to be extra nice is not, sharing is optional on both sides. whether that be a wifi code or xbox or car or anything above essentials (bathroom, kitchen and washing machine access!)

You cannot expect to get respect from your son unless you give him respect (including his own personal belongings)

My kids were like that daughter 2 yrs younger they were always fighting she would chase him around with a bit of 2x4 dig her nails in his hands make them bleed she even chased him with a knife yet if there was any trouble at school she would be there to defend him they stared to get on in their 20s

sorry about all the spelling errors above, hit submit accidentally

I feel so upset to think I have to facilitate his behaviour towards her
Nobody's holding a gun tp your head!
You can choose not to facilitate his bullshit and shitty attitude towards ANY family member.

Does he actually have any responsibilities at home - cleaning, cooking, laundry etc?
Does he pay any rent or towards household expenses?
From what you've written it sounds like he's had everything handed to him on a plate, and even when he fucks up majorly you just swoop in to bail him out.

A frank discussion about his attitude is needed along with the ultimatum that if he can't do that then he moves out asap.
He's old enough to find roomshares or other accommodation.

If he wants to be treated like an adult with full adult rights, he can pay rent, contribute his share towards food and other bills, do his share of the cooking, cleaning.. get the idea? I would bet that at the moment he does little or none of this. OP, stop doing the things you do for him and tell him he will have to pay his way as an adult now.

Sorry no real advice but there’ll be a 3 year 9 month gap between my DS and DD and I’m so worried that they won’t be close because the gap is just so big! But then I guess the same could happen with a closer age too! 🤷‍

I think it's just pot luck, tbh. My brother is four years older than me, and we've always had a brilliant relationship. We had a few physical squabbles when we were young, but he generally treated me very kindly. I think it helped that we had similar interests and sense of humour (we used to, and still do go to gigs together), and we're still close now.

He did piss me off when he'd have his mates around and play Actua Soccer 2 on my PlayStation though, but I was in the house at the time and wanted to play on it myself! We'd often play games (both video and board) together though, even with our mates around.

Was it because it was in his room? He sounds hard work, but from his point of view: you made him get a PT job. He then screed up his AS levels. Then you took away the option of him resitting them, and made him do an apprenticeship. Then YOU let your DD on his Xbox without asking him first. You want him to act like an adult. Treat him like one. I have no sense of what your son would actually like to do with his life. He may well feel hugely resentful because financially he relies on you. He may well feel she is the favoured child. Not saying this is how it is, but how it may appear to him.

It sounds like you're setting dd up to be the golden child and ds the scapegoat.

Insisting he had no academic future, insisting he shares his possessions, insisting he gets an apprenticeship.

Is he not allowed his own things? They're his, not yours to decide who can use them.

Why didn't you discuss restarting year 12, rather than drop out altogether.

It doesn't sound like he has much in the way of support from you unless he's doing what you want him to do.

Back on the OP, I can understand him getting angry about her playing on his XBox, especially if it's in his room. If she doesn't have her own account, she could end up messing up his save games, interacting with his friends, ballsing up his stars - as well as him feeling like his space has been violated. It does sound like he's a bit of a dick overall though.

Bloody hell you can't charge him rent at the same time as allowing his sister to use his stuff without asking.

Charge him rent, yep fine - but in that case his room and possessions are strictly off limits to everyone else (as they should be anyway!)

You can't force siblings to be close but you can make one of them resent the other by behaving like the OP.