that it has just hit me that this time next year I wont be an EU citizen

[garethsouthgatesmrs]

I know it's yet another brexit thread but it genuinely just hit me that it's actually happening THIS YEAR! I am truly gutted. Would love someone with political knowledge to come on and reassure me that it actually won't be that bad. I have 3 children who have to live with the repercussions.

buble is on jules holland-this has to be a good sign

apile
Immigrants can never win.
You're either too skilled or not enough, too visible or accused of being deceitful if you're not (I told this story on another thread but as I don't have a discernible accent - it's quite neutral London- I was told once upon sharing my origins that i'm the worst kind cause one can't tell!). Literally, in times like these there's nothing anyone can do to be deemed acceptable. It's about deciding a line for oneself, at what point it's no longer worth putting up with, and how intolerable xenophobes really want to make it for foreigners.

7salmonswimming there are several audiences on a Brexit thread those who engage and lurkers. By engaging in the debate and pointing out the lack of logic or facts in the Brexit stance I am well aware I will never convince the hardline leavers, but, a lurker or two may well become aware of the total lack of arguments on one side.

I think your defence of voting for emotion rather than logic actually makes one of the key points on Brexit threads. One side is logical and intellectual and the other isn't. You are entirely, if depressingly, correct.

I am puzzled by your comments in relation to xenophobia. Brexit has lifted the lid off the depth of racism in the U.K. and while I believe people should have freedom of speech and thought I think opposition to racism should be firm and clear. Simply saying people think this and are entitled to think it is not a strong enough response to racism.

I do think you should all get behind the result and get on with it you restate this point. You acknowledge my argument but you think opposition to Brexit is more damaging. Opposition is vital, opposition is a crucial function of democracy. The 'just get behind the result' argument is why referenda are dangerous, my reference to the referenda used by the Nazis in Germany was specific and relevant. Referenda are illegal in Germany now because of this very argument.

despite the first referendum being binding it wasn't binding. Whether you subscribe to the argument about the referendum being advisory is irrelevant. Legally and constitutionally all referenda are advisory in the U.K. because parliament is sovereign.

Great post MousseMoose.

David Cameron should never have made the solemn promise that the result would be implemented as that undermined parliament's moral authority in the matter.

The poster who supports an end to freedom of movement but is consdering retirement in France is a hypocrite. Like others, I assume she is wealthy - what a selfish attitude. Currently, any ordinary person can upsticks and move to mainland Europe. They can move to search out new opportunities, to follow a job relocation, to find work, to live with a loved one and providing they can support themselves, they can stay. Simple, open to all, no wealth required. The future? Just those who have the funds.

The loss of FOM for all is not my only dismay at Brexit, it’s not even the biggest issue I have - nowhere near - but it is a huge loss to British citizens. It’s sad that so many haven’t realised the value of it.

I also suspect the vote would have swung the other way if it hadn’t coincided with the Syrian refugee crisis. Daily news coverage of desperate people walking across Europe fuelling paranoia that they’re “all coming here.”

I’m sure that there are many people who voted Brexit in the basis of non-xenophobic attitudes and I respect that, but as Moose says, they are unlikely to be in the majority, sadly.

When you have sat in a pub or wedding reception and listened to chanting of “Cometh the man, cometh the hour,” what are you supposed to think? Do you write the experience off as a total anomaly, or do you have to face the uncomfortable truth that this will not be the only gathering / home / sector where this sentiment holds sway?

And what did “the man” do in his “hour?” Resigned fgs!

Similarly when a group of otherwise perfectly lovely pensioners are telling my children, “We always said you should never trust a German,” you know that obviously not all pensioners think like this but it’s nevertheless unsettling when you come across those who do. Then they follow it up with, “We always liked the Spanish though. Thinking of buying a holiday home there.”

Pa10ma you have already had one post deleted with your blatant ageism and here you are repeating it again.

As for the argument that we need to leave the EU to trade with the rest of the world. More errant nonsense. As they point out - our trade with the rest of the world is increasing while we’re in the EU. Far from preventing external trade - the EU facilitates it through multiple strongly negotiated trade deals and bi-lateral agreements.

I don’t get it. Not one bit of it.

I am specifically saying that it is not all pensioners. Read what I have written. It’s not even the majority or anywhere near that! This is obvious. But when you come across that kind of sentiment it’s nevertheless disturbing and makes you wonder how entrenched it actually is in society - in a way you didn’t before.

I think Pa10ma was relating an specific anecdote. A group of pensioners did say that to her child. That is observation not ageism.

It would be ageism if she said 'all' old people act and think that way.

I thinkPa10mawas relating an specific anecdote. A group of pensioners did say that to her child. That is observation not ageism.

Well the posts keep varying on how they say it. The implication is certainly there.

MNHQ deleted the first one.

My DMIL had a group of very pro remainers shouted abuse at her that if it wasn't for people like her remain would have won and that pensioners shouldn't vote.

Do I imply from that that all remainers are like that or it is an entrenched in society? No because sweeping generalisations firstly achieve nothing and secondly are stupid.

Both myself and my family have had some quite horrible anti semetic abuse. Do I think everyone is anti semetic? No I don't.

We now have a situation where we are going to prioritise highly skilled immigrants.
So all the Foreigners will do the good paying jobs
and the low skilled Brits will work for them on NMW
that will end well

I think it's sad me and my DH are going to have our UK driving licenses changed over to EU ones tomorrow. It's 20 years of having lived and worked in the UK gone up in smoke as I know I'll probably will never be able to settle back in UK, as will our British born DD, though we have applied for a UK passport for her, so at least she'll be able to travel freely to visit her British family. What a mess.

I have lived in the UK for over 20 years and am proud to bring my children up here. We identify as British and are proud of the Bfitish values of tolerance and diversity. As I said, my DC have never experienced direct racism and neither has DH really (well not since the 70s). Of course if someone shouts something at you in the street, you don’t presume all people are racists . But when you come across individuals, of any age or background, who seem to see Brexit as justification of a xenophobia that perhaps they felt they couldn’t express before, I do find that worrying and it makes you wonder what attitudes lie under the surface. When the Polish Cultural Centre near to us was defaced on the very night of the Brexit vote, OF COURSE, these vandals do not represent 99.9% of Brexit voters. This goes without saying. But you can’t just ignore that kind of sentiment either, nor more benign expressions of hatred because these people do exist, whether we like it or not.

We now have a situation where we are going to prioritise highly skilled immigrants.

No you're not ... you're going to prioritise highly paid immigrants. That's not the same thing at all.

"Pa10ma

I also suspect the vote would have swung the other way if it hadn’t coincided with the Syrian refugee crisis. Daily news coverage of desperate people walking across Europe fuelling paranoia that they’re “all coming here.”

I’m sure that there are many people who voted Brexit in the basis of non-xenophobic attitudes and I respect that, but as Moose says, they are unlikely to be in the majority, sadly"

Considering the fact that the refugees had no legal right to enter the UK pre referendum and it was widely publicised that we had well and truly dug our heels in and refused to take anything more than a handful, your assumptions are way off the mark.
As for the rest of your post regarding leavers not all being racist or xenophobic but the majority are, you've just stuck yourself in the 'voted remain and have a complete inability to understand why 52% voted leave box'

No the refugees had no legal right to enter the UK, but that doesn’t stop such scenes fuelling paranoia (sadly).

Maybe I don’t understand “the 52%” as you put it. I actually wouldn’t lump people together like that. What I am saying is that I have heard some unpleasant sentiments expressed in the wake of Brexit that I had not previously encountered in the UK - a kind of “benign racism” from people I wouldn’t have expected to hear it from. That is my experience and I would be lying if I didn’t admit to finding it unsettling. As I have repeatedly said, if I met a person who voted Brexit and explained that it was purely on the basis of economic factors, then I would totally respect their view and be interested to hear their valid perspectives. That is what this thread is about.

@pa10ma and @moussemoose

Not that it matters, but I don’t support any of the xenophobic views or thoughts on immigration that you see on these Brexit threads. Not by a long shot! Please don’t confuse my explanations with actual support!

What you say is true: the UK is indeed on a path to extremism, the country does harbour huge numbers of racists, people did vote on lines that largely weren’t based on fact. THIS is the problem. The referendum gave these people a platform to express themselves.

The EU is led by intellectual elites who have largely left the populace behind in a country where national leadership does nothing to bridge the gap between the electorate and the EU. Yes the machinery of democratic governance is there. But it’s not used properly. So people are largely ignorant of the EU, what it does, what it’s for, how it serves them. They feel the EU just dictates and takes money. This fundamental breakdown of visible accountability and a national leadership which has always been so-so about the EU is what was behind the result, I think.

This is a huge problem. It’s a cultural thing, not something that can change in a few months. Think about it: voters knew much much more about the EU / what it does / who the players are / what it is for under Thatcher and Major, and maybe even Blair than they do now. The rest of the EU is far more aware and “in” with the EU than the UK. Always has been. The regular person on the street in France or Germany or Spain would know much more about subsidies and quotas and tariffs and immigration than their fellow EU national in the UK. The UK has never been fully in board.

Parliament is sovereign, that’s immutable. But consider the trust lost in Parliament (because let’s face it, where were Labour or the Lib Dems when the referendum was called?) if a second referendum happens. Especially if the same result ensues (see above and polls since, suggesting this is possible if not probable).

See Salmon we actually agree with each other!

People are ignorant about the EU apart from the fact it has been a convent whipping boy. Every problem or issue has been blamed on the EU politicians of all parties have used it as an excuse to avoid taking responsibility for difficult decisions.

TBH I think we are facing serious problems in the U.K. as a result of the Brexit fiasco whatever happens. I think we should stay because at least we will face these problems with a more stable economy and political security with our neighbours.

If we Brexit the unrest will continue and we will face these issues while poor and alone.

Dammed it we do and dammed if we don't.

Totally agree 7Salmon.

the refugees had no legal right to enter the UK

Actually refugees do have a legal right to seek asylum from the UK. Which might or might not be granted depending on the circumstances of their leaving their home state and their arriving at the UK border.

No the refugees had no legal right to enter the UK
WRONG
Its economic migrants like me who can be sent home without delay.

Refugees and asylum seekers have rights
and if anybody thinks Brexit will stop them coming
they are in for a shock

Let them in and let them work

As I said, my DC have never experienced direct racism and neither has DH really (well not since the 70s).

Then as you have admitted yourself you probably live in a bubble.

Lets not also just blame Brexit either. For some of us it has never gone away. It doesn't just come from the far right either, which to some is an inconvenient truth.

And it’s an inconvenient truth that racism has risen in the wake of Brexit and that Brexit was supported by racist groups and campaign used racist imagery. Oh well.

@mousemoose

I don’t think we do agree, except (perhaps) on some of the “how” of Brexit. But that’s okay. It’s a discussion board, as you say.