that it has just hit me that this time next year I wont be an EU citizen

[garethsouthgatesmrs]

I know it's yet another brexit thread but it genuinely just hit me that it's actually happening THIS YEAR! I am truly gutted. Would love someone with political knowledge to come on and reassure me that it actually won't be that bad. I have 3 children who have to live with the repercussions.

buble is on jules holland-this has to be a good sign

Meh, we were told the world would come to an end when Trump was elected...

and to add therewillbetime you know full well describing it as paperwork omits that criteria need to be met that many will not meet. It’s not just a case of form filling!

@therewillbetime . I'm old. I have family who have lived and worked all over the world. I have too. Lots of paperwork, obviously.
It was really unusual to do so among my peers - working class Northern types. It was what my family did with little money and lots of perseverance. My peers didn't. But the next generation from those same families could do it because of FOM. And once they got a taste for it, some went further . With the inevitable paperwork.
FOM gave ordinary working class people the chance to spread their wings.

I don't get the fuss about the idea of an EU army. Pooling our military resources seems like a pretty sensible idea, especially given how much the current government has run down our military capability. Trump in the White House has shown that we would be foolish to rely on US protection and Putin has shown that Russian aggression remains an ongoing threat. France and the UK already have some joint military capability.

However, all the above is a moot point as if we remain in the EU, we can veto any such joint military policy. Brexit will be shit, whatever level it happens from the total disaster of no deal to the gradual decline of our economy and "soft" power with any other type of exit.

If you are ashamed to live in a society where a democratic vote took place, you really, truly need to examine where that feeling comes from.

Well I am ashamed that what has been called a "democratic" vote was actually far from it. It was a mis-managed advisory referendum with several very significant breaches in electoral rules (does that not matter anymore?) and thousands of British citizens disenfranchised.... I don't call that democracy.

Brexit will be shit, whatever level it happens from the total disaster of no deal to the gradual decline of our economy and "soft" power with any other type of exit.

There are plenty of countries outside of the EU who have expressed an interest in trade deals.

I haven’t looked at it in detail but I am pretty sure for a UK citizen to get a visa and job offer for the US is more difficult than just requiring a degree.

My employer sometimes sends British staff to work in the US and it's often difficult for their spouses to get working visas, regardless of qualifications.

It's so obviously ridiculous to make a parallel between a work visa for the US and freedom of movement within the EU that it's hard to avoid the conclusion that people are deliberately aiming to misinform.

Childrenofthesun There already is an EU ‘permanent structured cooperation’ set up by willing Member States only. Any unwilling Member States can simply choose not to take part. There’s no veto on setting it up, but that’s because participation is voluntary. Member States can join once it’s underway – and leave at any time, with no conditions attached.

ooh, popped back in to see if the ad infinitum verbiage (link provided) had ceased, moved on, but nay... still the he said, she said, they said (with links) as before.

Another positive for leaving the EU - no more politicians (blonde/female) having their hair 'fluffed' by male 'senior' colleagues, and it being so openly criticized yet left as being inexplicably ok.

The irony of our EU membership being the catalyst for making this sexist behaviour illegal in the UK yet openly practiced within the EU presiding structure itself is not 'lost' on me at all.

I didn't say it would be better. I said we'd get through it. It will be different but we will get trade deals etc. It will just take time.

And during that time we risk a recession worse than the 2008 financial crash, the consequences of which we are still suffering from, no thanks. Also multiple analysis has shown even if we got all the major trade deals with the major economic powers eventually (and as a middle sized economy we are not going to get v favourable deals) this will not replace the loss in GDP that staying part of the single market and customs union would prevent.

There are plenty of countries outside of the EU who have expressed an interest in trade deals.

Yes, deals that will be advantageous for them, not us. We already had access to the best trade deals that could be negotiated as a member of the world's most powerful trading bloc. Nobody is going to give a better deal to a market of 60 million people than they do to a market of hundreds of millions of people.

@hateisnotgood, ha ha ha, I don’t like Juncker, personally or for his political views. Yet his position ends in 2019. I also don’t like many parliamentarians doesn’t mean I want to see our Parliamenatry system dismantled. Get better arguments!

"There are plenty of countries outside of the EU who have expressed an interest in trade deals."
Because they can dictate terms when our economy tanks. Capitalism 101.

I think some people gleefully and absolutely relish the idea of things descending into complete and utter chaos. They may come on and say “oh believe me, there’s nothing more than I would love Brexit to be a success” but everyone knows that isn’t true because it would mean that all their hysteria and patronising comments were for nothing and they’d look stupid. And they claim to love their country. Yeah right.

Thanks @Mistigri, I agree.

Thanks Buteo. I did read something in the news about the UK continuing to be allowed to participate in some form of joint military operations even after Brexit, so perhaps it's related to the cooperative structure you mention.

{There are plenty of countries outside of the EU who have expressed an interest in trade deals.}
Expressing an interest, putting it down formally, and then having the money to pay for whatever it is that the UK might sell are entirely different things. Mrs May's dancing in Africa was great, a possible trade deal of was it £4 Billion? Sounds good until you realise that trade with the EU is around £200 Billion? Also in general the EU has the 'cash'. Parts of Africa are now getting massively into debt with China who will be only too happy to get tough if things don't suit them.

@thevoiceofraisin
There are plenty of countries outside of the EU who have expressed an interest in trade deals
Who do we not trade with at the moment that we'll need a deal with after Brexit ?

Hateisnotgood
Another positive for leaving the EU - no more politicians (blonde/female) having their hair 'fluffed' by male 'senior' colleagues
Is that REALLY the best Brexit reason you have left ?

Recent article in the Independent:

The economics is straightforward. When trade barriers between the UK and the EU go up, British producers will sell less to the EU and will sell more within the UK and to the rest of the world.

Scholars associated with the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis, uncontaminated by motivated reasoning, conclude that stepped-up trade and investment with more dynamic economies outside the EU will give British producers greater access to cutting-edge technology and force them to become more productive. Such gains, in their view, will likely offset the costs of lost trade with the EU. Thus, on balance, the net gains or losses from Brexit should be modest.

No trade economist believes that the long-term cost of this shift in sales patterns is any more than 0.5 per cent of GDP. Throw in 2 to 3 per cent of GDP as temporary disruption costs. Britain’s trade with the EU is down to about 45 per cent from 60 per cent in 2000. Brexit will speed up that already rapid shift.

@MissionItsPossible, if the UK someone managed to defy the global system of trade and business and maintained its position as fifth largest economy in the world outside the EU, I would be relieved, although would still be sad to lose the benefits of Freedom of Movement. However, I also believe we have to live in reality and I everything suggests huge economic upheaval lies ahead and that makes me sad for my country.

I think the EU army project is separate to the EU.

No deal is better than a shit deal (as we currently have).

Was it Kate Andrews who referted to "the fear-mongering of sandwich shortages"?

No deal is better than a shit deal (as we currently have).
In what way is no deal better?

{stepped-up trade and investment with more dynamic economies outside the EU will give British producers greater access to cutting-edge technology and force them to become more productive.}
So what has stopped them doing this already?
What about the 7-10 year gap while the UK renegotiates trade deals to establish new tariffs?