Grammar schools - which dc to prioritise?

[sylviavana]

We have a dd aged 9 in Year 5 and a ds aged 8 in Year 4.

Dd is extremely clever, and has always been top of her class. Ds is a lovely, kind boy but he’s never been a high achiever at school, even though he tries very hard.

We currently live in a grammar school area. As things stand, dd will be sitting the 11+ next year and is pretty much guaranteed to get into a great girls’ grammar school where I know she’ll thrive. She often gets frustrated at school when the teacher has to slow down to help other children - I think a selective environment would suit her perfectly, and I think she’d love being at a girls’ school, as she frequently gets annoyed by the boys in her class who mess around.

However, ds will almost certainly not get into the local boys’ grammar school, and the non-grammar options in our catchment area are not good. They have a reputation for very bad behaviour and low attendance, don’t get good results, and all have pretty crap facilities and buildings compared to the girls’ grammar that dd will be going to.

I’m so worried that this will cause ds to resent dd - that she has so much better a school experience. I’m also worried that it will crush him to see some of his friends joining dd at the girls’ school or going to the boys’ grammar school, when he has next to no chance of getting in no matter how hard he works.

All this is leading Dh and I to wonder if we need to bite the bullet and move as quickly as possible to a comprehensive area, to be ready to apply for secondary schools for dd this time next year. On the one hand it would be lovely for dd and ds to go to the same school and have a shared school experience, and for ds not to feel ‘less than’ but I worry that I would be robbing dd of an amazing grammar school experience. She has never quite fitted in at primary school, and I think she’d do well in an environment where being clever wasn’t seen as ‘uncool’. On the other hand, I’ve heard that comprehensive schools stream in almost all subjects now, so maybe her classes wouldn’t be that different to a grammar school?

Sorry for rambling! Can I ask what you would do in this situation? Which dc’s education would you prioritise?

FuckingYule
I am well aware that some schools do the MAT
the list is here musicaptitudetest.wordpress.com/category/mat-2019/
But you said most
which is bilge

I said most where I live not in the country - Jesus!
Since you are going to refuse to believe me unless I give you my postal address I guess I’ll just have to let it argue with yourself

Are you really sure the comps local to you are as bad as you seem to think? I live in a grammar school area, and I certainly wouldn't say the facilities at the comps are inferior to those at the grammars. And whilst my older two have been fortunate enough to gain grammar school places (by which I mean fortunate for them, as they have proven to be good schools for my daughters), with the exception of one particular school, i wouldn't have had a problem with them going to any of the local comps.

I would move. I don't think you can risk confining either of them to the sink school left behind by the grammar system.

A bright, well-motivated child will do well pretty much anywhere, but your ds will really struggle in a sink school by the sounds of it.

‘Aptitude’ tests in a specialism have to ensure that they aren’t selective by academic ability, or at least try to ensure that. My DSs’ school used to have a language aptitude test but also a fair banding test, so equal numbers with high language aptitude from each ability band.

What I meant is very few secondary schools are actually 'comps'. I have just done my daughter's secondary school application. Of the schools we have applied too (we are London so loads of schools) only one is actually comprehensive - as in the criterea for getting in is distance from home to school. No streaming test required. No burseries for the special 10%. However the other schools all required streaming tests, 2 offer burseries to children with a specific talent etc. Ones we didn't apply too also have this. One of those schools has pupils who travel from the other side of London because they got a music /sport/ whatever bursery meaning children who live next door lose out on a place.
This is not what 'comprehensive' is meant to mean. A local school for local children whatever their academic level is 'a comp' and very few secondary schools like that exist anymore.

bookmum08
LOTS of Secondary schools are Comps.
London is highly unusual.

Come to Hampshire.
All of the schools have the selection criteria
"are you the right age, do you live in the catchment"
because they are comprehensives

and there are thousands of them around the country

Wow, I find the level of vitriol here really quite surprising, and especially that so many PPs seem convinced that OP is trying to sacrifice her daughter’s future for the sake of her son’s.

I see it as you having two choices (let’s ignore the splitting the family one as it’s ridiculous): stay where you are and your kids either get into the very good grammars or to the far from great non-selective. Or move elsewhere and they can both go to a very good comp. If you assume that your DD does get into the grammar but your DS doesn’t, then it may well (unless the non-selective has a decent change about - not unheard of) be that she has an excellent education and he doesn’t. If you move and they both for to a very good comp then they would both enjoy/benefit from a very good secondary education. Like PPs have said, a bright child will still flourish in a comp - and maybe even more so. And your son may well flourish more in a supportive comp than a crappy one.

FWIW, I was one of the brightest children in my primary and went to my local all-girls grammar. The whole time there I was very middling, and I left school feeling very much like I wasn’t very clever. Unless you were top of the class or scraping the bottom then you weren’t paid much attention to - I was made to feel like I’d failed my A’levels because I didn’t get all A’s, when in fact I got excellent results. In addition, I hated the all girls environment and found it cliquey - bullying and bitchiness was rife. I was so excited about going but on hindsight I would not have gone, and there is no way I would send my daughter to either a grammar or an all-girls school.

We are currently looking at moving and had been set on moving to Kent until we looked in more detail at prospective secondary schools and the situation is very much as you describe - high flying grammars and lots of not very good secondary moderns (or at least in the areas we were looking at). We didn’t want that for our kids, and after watching the recent BBC programme on grammars it really brought home to me that I don’t want my kids to be thinking that they’ve potentially “failed” age 10 because they haven’t gotten into a school.

Anyway, I just wanted to add my tuppance. It’s a hard decision to make, but I’m sure you’ll find the right one.

Thank you for both explaining the complexities of school admissions in my area and also resharing the same link I had already posted to do so though 😂

Schools don’t always do a fair banding test alongside the aptitude test. They have different criteria. Ds sat tests at 2 faith schools for example. One took the top 30 scores regardless of faith, the other took the top 32 Catholics.

Catholic Schools are not Comps. By definition.

In my home town (oxfordshire) there are 3 secondary schools. All three began life as Comps in the 60s/70s although one is a Roman Catholic school so they have always been giving preference for children of that faith. However all three are now Academies. Therefore they can pick and choose who they give places too. They are no longer the local school for local children (with feeder primaries). That is not Comphensive too me and infact some children get allocated a secondary place in a completely different town.

However all three are now Academies. Therefore they can pick and choose who they give places too
Cobblers
They still have to comply with the Admissions code

11+ places are never guaranteed, however bright a child is.
Try her for it and if she gets in you can move to an area where there’s better option for your son

Ta1kin the admissions criteral for my former comp now academy in oxfordshire gives priority of places to children of staff above children who live next door. So a child who could live 30 miles away could get a place but a child who lives 30 metres away may miss out. That's what I meant by 'picking and choosing'.

There's still two years before your DS has to sit 11+, a lot can change - for some perspective, measure the same two years back (to when he was 6) and just think of the progress he made since.

Maybe affording private school fees is not totally unrealistic, given that there's three years to save? Even a couple of hundred saved every month between now and then will provide a good buffer.

Bright children do just as well in comprehensives as they do in grammar schools. Move away from this horrible, divisive system!

Ta1kinPeace agreed. No comprehensive state schools in our area have special admission criteria for specific talents. It's siblings and distance after LAC and EHCPs.

And all I meant in the begining was I was surprised people actually use the phrase 'local comp' because it seems so dated. I guess I was wrong but I was going by my knowlege of the admissions policies for the dozens of schools I looked at in london, plus those three in oxfordshire plus 5 schools in a town in northampshire (we were hoping to maybe move). Most of them seem to no longer market themselves as 'Comphensive Schools' but Academy Schools'. That's all I meant really - it being a dated phrase.

It’s very simple OP. In non-Grammar areas the grammar-ability kids go to comps, and do very well.
In grammar-areas the top 25% are missing from the other schools so those schools are not ‘comps’ at all.

The results of fully Grammar county Kent are not better overall than fully comprehensive LAs.

In your situation, I would move to the catchment of a good comprehensive.

In any situation that is what I would do. Otherwise you risk your Dd not making it in tne one day of the test, your Ds being consigned to a secondary modern even though as he matured he may blossom into top set ability in a range of subjects (if not all).
In a good comp kids will be set according to learning speed for different subjects.

I am actually glad to hear that some areas in England that schools admissions are that you simply go to your local school. That's how it should be. In London it's gone a bit nuts and children travelling for miles and miles to go to school.

Pps have mentioned moving to Hampshire, which is fully comprehensive. If you move to the right area of Hampshire (e.g. Fordingbridge), that would give your dc access to the Hampshire Comprehensives, but also to the two very good Grammars (girls' and boys') in Salisbury, a little further north into Wiltshire.

“Even a couple of hundred saved every month between now and then will provide a good buffer.”
Even a couple of hundred?
Do you realise how this sounds to many families who can barely save ‘even’ a couple of tenners?

FFS.

In London, some parents have gone a bit nuts, yes.
Actually in London many of us have a perfectly reasonable range of local comps to choose from. In a non posh S London postcode I had 3 good comps that we could have had places in without going for the various scholarship, Faith or selective places we could have gone for had we gone a bit nuts.

Other families I know if across different areas of London have exactly the same rxperience.

Competitive frenzy takes hold.
And there are a few tricky areas, of course, just like elsewhere in tne country.

Just because your ds is a boy, does not mean his needs are unimportant, as suggested by some on here . He is struggling and will need a school that can cater for his needs, your dd will do well anywhere. I would find a good comprehensive for both of them.

Where there are many grammar schools, the local schools are secondary moderns. They cannot possibly be comprehensive. My La now has “secondary modern” schools that call themselves “all ability”. They are not. They will have some high achievers because not all of these children as defined by Sats, get into the grammar schools. They are all academies but you have to understand the local system before you know if a school is truly comprehensive or not.

Many people where I live, when faced with this dilemma, and plenty are, is to live in catchment for the better secondary moderns. Failing that, and some people don’t like the idea of a secondary modern, parents move just outside the county to be in catchment for a comp. Althoigh as the Grammars take children from these towns, they are not true comps either! Lastly, many pay for a private school for the non grammar sibling.

However the vast majority of parents I know who faced this problem made sure they lived in catchment for the best secondary (or attended the necessary church) but still took advantage of the grammar for the child selected to go to one. So moving is probably best unless funding God helps!