Grammar schools - which dc to prioritise?

[sylviavana]

We have a dd aged 9 in Year 5 and a ds aged 8 in Year 4.

Dd is extremely clever, and has always been top of her class. Ds is a lovely, kind boy but he’s never been a high achiever at school, even though he tries very hard.

We currently live in a grammar school area. As things stand, dd will be sitting the 11+ next year and is pretty much guaranteed to get into a great girls’ grammar school where I know she’ll thrive. She often gets frustrated at school when the teacher has to slow down to help other children - I think a selective environment would suit her perfectly, and I think she’d love being at a girls’ school, as she frequently gets annoyed by the boys in her class who mess around.

However, ds will almost certainly not get into the local boys’ grammar school, and the non-grammar options in our catchment area are not good. They have a reputation for very bad behaviour and low attendance, don’t get good results, and all have pretty crap facilities and buildings compared to the girls’ grammar that dd will be going to.

I’m so worried that this will cause ds to resent dd - that she has so much better a school experience. I’m also worried that it will crush him to see some of his friends joining dd at the girls’ school or going to the boys’ grammar school, when he has next to no chance of getting in no matter how hard he works.

All this is leading Dh and I to wonder if we need to bite the bullet and move as quickly as possible to a comprehensive area, to be ready to apply for secondary schools for dd this time next year. On the one hand it would be lovely for dd and ds to go to the same school and have a shared school experience, and for ds not to feel ‘less than’ but I worry that I would be robbing dd of an amazing grammar school experience. She has never quite fitted in at primary school, and I think she’d do well in an environment where being clever wasn’t seen as ‘uncool’. On the other hand, I’ve heard that comprehensive schools stream in almost all subjects now, so maybe her classes wouldn’t be that different to a grammar school?

Sorry for rambling! Can I ask what you would do in this situation? Which dc’s education would you prioritise?

I'd move to a good comp area.

Apart from the other issues, girls' grammars can be very, very pressured environments, not great for MH.

Personally, I'd think about moving - I might not go through with it because it's a huge upheaval, but I'd want to explore the options. We almost moved to an area with grammars and secondary moderns when our kids were small, and only didn't because a house purchase fell through. Like you, we have children with quite different academic attainment, and we are now so relieved we ended up somewhere where we didn't have to worry about what you're worrying about now. No idea what part of the country you live in, but it sounds like you might want to find a town similar to Horsham, Sussex. It has a girls' comp that pushes quite hard and is very high attaining for the top sets (perfect for your DD?). Also a boys' comp, which isn't bad, and a mixed comp which is great. Move to the mixed comp catchment here and you'd almost certainly have a choice of all three schools.

I'd stay put, all my sisters went to grammars and I went to a not great single sex comp, it really isn't the end of the world. I learn't to work harder and thrive through the 'relative' choas which has served me very well in my work life - it can work out with the right guidance.

Get your son extra tuition! He is only eight...

Move to a good Comp area - Hampshire springs to mind

Both your kids will get the education they need and deserve without any stress

Kids who get extra tuition to get into Grammar schools tend to absolutely BOMB once they start there. If they needed extra tuition to get in, they will need extra tuition to pass. How much extra tuition is it reasonable to shove down a child's throat before you accept that he's perfectly normal and therefore not in need of a grammar place, those being for the top 10% of achievers.

I think you always have to go for what is best for the child you are dealing with at the time.

This.

The schools offering scholarships definitely weren’t ind. schools. 1 is the top faith school in the city and another was formerly an ind school but now you only pay if you board or attend the small school within a school for international students.

I think you need to go and see the schools, go to the open days, look at all the options. Surely all the local comps can't be awful? I wouldn't move house tbh. We're in NI where there are more grammars and all three of ours got into the school of our choice. It's incredibly competitive where we are and no such thing as comp to fall back on.

I know lots of families who have kids in different schools. They don't stress over it, just get on with it. If you are otherwise happy where you live then make it work for you.

Play the game, get some tutoring for your DS if you think that might be enough to get him in. Boys do develop more slowly.

All schools have disadvantages! No such thing as a perfect one!

Why should comps have poorer facilities than grammar schools? That’s just not right.

I remember having a similar conversation with my SIL about her kids, mine were babies at the time so I had no idea what to advise.

She stayed put. Her "high flying" daughter missed the pass mark by a mile & ended up at the local comp & her "underachieving son" now gets a huge bursary to go to a local private school as he did so well.

Seems she had no quarms about helping her son's education (including part-paying for it) & the local comp was good enough for her daughter after all (though she wouldn't have let her son attend).

I don't agree necessarily about tutoring - but someone has to be in the lower regions of the class. Perhaps though that is more soul-destroying than being in a comp though.

During the open day I wasn’t actually particularly impressed with our grammar. Seemed like they didn’t really care as they are always have a ridiculous number of applicants being the only one in the city and one of the top nationally. The building has character but was tatty imo. But they get results - as you’d expect with them creaming off the top pupils and staff.
Ds wasn’t tutored but judging by the amount of parents enquiring about tutoring and taking flyers on the open day I imagine a fair proportion of the intake is tutored. It’s cheaper for a middle class family to pay for tutoring than private school fees.

YuleLog
State schools do not charge fees so they cannot offer scholarships.
Scholarship = fee paying = independent

Touchmybum
The school / exam / selection system in Northern Ireland is totally different from the mainland UK
They are not comparable.

Why do they need to go to the same school If your DD goes to an all-girls school then they won't be at the same one anyway! There is no need for a 'priority child' here!

Seems a very odd move to look for a school they can both attend in the circumstances you outline. Favourite child, perhaps (DS?).

Agree that grammar schools are a much bigger pond than primary schools too, someone has to be bottom even at grammar school.

In 3 years time the local comprehensive could have had a change of management and by the best school in the area.

Of my siblings 3 went to grammar, 3 went to the local catholic school and I went to a school with a very bad rep but that suited me well, having passed my 11+ and very briefly attended the grammar. I don't think any of us ever resented the others schools being better.

Depending where you are, have you looked at the church non-selective schools? The ones near me have grammar streams which are as good as the local grammars and might be the better option for both your DC if you want them at the same school but honestly I think resentment would only come in if you start letting on how bleak you think DSs options are.

Hard question. Being the 'cleverest' of my siblings, but growing up thinking that nothing I did was ever good enough, since I didn't really get any praise (for top grades, for perfect test scorest etc etc), since my siblings wouldn't get as much praise if I got praised for things like that and that would be unfair, I'm biased to think that it would be unfair to move to take away this opportunity from your daughter. I was also the odd one out at school - no friends from age 10 to 15, since I was 'too clever', and bullied for that at times. I would have benefited massively from being in an environment where it was 'allowed' to be good at school. (Still affects my social life nowadays that I was bullied.)

However, in principle I don't agree with the grammar school system. I wonder if you could find an area where both would get the support they need? Any high achieving state schools that you could aim for?

And re this: "On the one hand it would be lovely for dd and ds to go to the same school and have a shared school experience,"

I really, really, wouldn't let this influence your thinking. From what you're writing, it sounds more as if the younger one would benefit from being a 'clean slate' at school, and not 'oh how lovely you're sylviavana's daughter's brother, you must be clever too!"

My youngest cousin had two older sisters, both clever, youngest cousin diagnosed with Asperger as an adult. She hated, with a vengeance, being greeted by all new teachers with 'so nice to see another sibling of...'

I cannot say that it has made any difference in the world to my siblings and me that we 'shared a school experience' - completely pointless factor to use to make your minds up.

Good luck!

Sorry if I used the wrong terminology. They select a small proportion on the basis of a music exam. I think one state school also selects for art (no idea how that works!).

Is grammar for dd and private for ds an option?

Otherwise I'd stay put as they may both resent moving and being uprooted. Don't allow your dd to miss out or to get the impression that being all that she can be is detrimental to her brother - they're different people.

Fwiw I went to grammar and my brother didn't but my mum handled it in a not great way - no support/encouragement through exams etc, and told it was a shame dbro not the clever one ect as he'd need to support a family one day (v sexist too). I do feel a little resentful about it, don't know how dbro feels as we haven't ever discussed it.

Surely there are some good options for secondary moderns - in the area we live (also grammar) there are two which are well known for being better. Or would county borders be an option? For example just into a good comprehensive area but also in catchment for grammar.

Have you actually been to look at any of these schools? Especially the non-grammar schools? Because if this is all hearsay and league tables, you might as well be basing it on horoscopes. Go and meet the headteacher, talk to some students, see how it really feels.

I’ve not read all the replies but I think you sound very sensible OP apart from you splitting your family which is bonkers imho. I’d suggest letting your DD sit 11+ whilst you research a move. Bucks/Oxon border is great because if you get location right you get option of Bucks grammars and oxon comps. May also be true of Bucks/Berkshire borders too. Worth a thought. Good luck!

It is extremely common for children to be in different schools in a grammar area or even where there are super-selectives.

I think you are jumping the gun here a bit, and your idea of splitting up the family over this is ludicrous. First, your dd may not get in. There was a really big cohort of bright girls from my dd's class who all did grammar entrance and I would have said from the outside at least half would get in; hardly any did. So, that is not necessarily in the bag.

Second, you are convinced that the secondary moderns are all crap. There is a lot of change though in the 'crapper' schools and they may get a lot better. Our local comp was always considered pretty bad but it has pulled its socks up, streams heavily and now has above average results and a waiting list. This was not predictable even 5 years ago. Being a bright child in a secondary modern is not always a disaster and may be preferable to being nowhere in a comp with a grammar stream type arrangement.

Unless you want to move for other reasons, I would apply for your dd, see what happens, then make the best choice for your son out of the available schools. I think the 'terror' of a bad comp is high to the point of exaggeration and myth, look at their value added score. Some have great pastoral care and extra-curricular activities as well. It's not the playing fields at Eton but not a wasteland of lost dreams either.

You want to prevent your ds from feeling resentful towards your dd in future by stopping your dd from going to grammar school. Don't you think that stopping her from fulfilling her full potential might just cause her to feel resentful towards him in the future?

How would you deal with the matter if it was your son who was the elder and brighter one, and your daughter only average?

I'd have a look at good comprehensives in areas you would be happy to live in. Some comps have a grammar stream or special programme for more able/G&T students, and most set for at least some subjects.

I teach at a home counties comprehensive, not in a grammar area. Good exam results, and Ofsted seems to rotate between Good and Outstanding. Students are set for most subjects, and I think this works well for high achievers. We have a wider range of subjects than a lot of grammars in the next county (eg English Language A-level isn't offered at most grammars, but it can be great for students who want to study MFL or linguistics at degree-level).

The advantage of sets over grammars is that students don't have to be 100% all rounders. We had one student switch to us from a competitive grammar a few years ago, who was truly gifted at maths, but "only" very good at English. She had felt like she was failing English at her grammar, but went into set 2 with us and thrived. This also helps students who probably wouldn't get into grammars - they can be in a high set for Maths or French or PE even if their over all ability wouldn't get them into a grammar.