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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Grammar schools - which dc to prioritise?

226 replies

sylviavana · 30/12/2018 21:57

We have a dd aged 9 in Year 5 and a ds aged 8 in Year 4.

Dd is extremely clever, and has always been top of her class. Ds is a lovely, kind boy but he’s never been a high achiever at school, even though he tries very hard.

We currently live in a grammar school area. As things stand, dd will be sitting the 11+ next year and is pretty much guaranteed to get into a great girls’ grammar school where I know she’ll thrive. She often gets frustrated at school when the teacher has to slow down to help other children - I think a selective environment would suit her perfectly, and I think she’d love being at a girls’ school, as she frequently gets annoyed by the boys in her class who mess around.

However, ds will almost certainly not get into the local boys’ grammar school, and the non-grammar options in our catchment area are not good. They have a reputation for very bad behaviour and low attendance, don’t get good results, and all have pretty crap facilities and buildings compared to the girls’ grammar that dd will be going to.

I’m so worried that this will cause ds to resent dd - that she has so much better a school experience. I’m also worried that it will crush him to see some of his friends joining dd at the girls’ school or going to the boys’ grammar school, when he has next to no chance of getting in no matter how hard he works.

All this is leading Dh and I to wonder if we need to bite the bullet and move as quickly as possible to a comprehensive area, to be ready to apply for secondary schools for dd this time next year. On the one hand it would be lovely for dd and ds to go to the same school and have a shared school experience, and for ds not to feel ‘less than’ but I worry that I would be robbing dd of an amazing grammar school experience. She has never quite fitted in at primary school, and I think she’d do well in an environment where being clever wasn’t seen as ‘uncool’. On the other hand, I’ve heard that comprehensive schools stream in almost all subjects now, so maybe her classes wouldn’t be that different to a grammar school?

Sorry for rambling! Can I ask what you would do in this situation? Which dc’s education would you prioritise?

OP posts:
MotsDHeureGoussesRames · 30/12/2018 23:11

I would look to move somewhere with a very good comp. There is absolutely NO reason your DD can't feel stretched at a good comp with setting and she gets the added benefit of a social education and learning how to work alongside people of differing levels of intelligence and background. Your DS also gets his needs catered for in an inclusive environment where he can thrive and reach his potential. If your DD is truly extremely clever, she will do just as well at a comp, as she would at a grammar. Your DS, if not as bright, needs the benefit of being in an excellent school where he can reach his potential whilst also not feeling as though he has failed at age 11 and watching his sister have access to potentially far better opportunities than he does, just because she happened to be born brighter. This is a no-brainer for me. You aren't depriving DD of a grammar school education, you're providing her with an education of just as good quality, whilst not disadvantaging your son. Neither child needs to be made aware of the reasoning behind any move.

Laine21 · 30/12/2018 23:11

Your post created flashbacks and tears for me. 😥 My mother always favoured my younger brother, and even now many years later I still resent this. As siblings We don't like each other, she wouldn't let me sit the entrance exam for the school I wanted.and that really hurt, my best friends all sat the exam and passed. The head and my teacher tried to persuade her, but she refused. I still remember the meeting in the heads office, I got on with everything, but hated the school she insisted I went to. As a teenager I was unhappy at a school where I knew few others. I didn't fit in, I wanted to study, I wanted to go to uni. Her putting him ahead of me, included her instance I get a job instead of A levels while he went on to do a very good engineering apprenticeship with a good company while I worked in a shoe shop. Fast forward and I went to uni finally as a mature student, my daughters were allowed their own choice of schools and careers, I would do anything for them......equally.
Please don't sacrifice your daughters chance of the school she wants.

She deserves the very best just as much as your son. He may not be as academic as her at the moment, he may want different things. You could pay for a tutor for out of school lessons to help him. He may not even want to go the same school. But if he does, as a sibling he stands a good chance. So please invest in a tutor for him and let your daughter go to the grammar school.

Ta1kinPeace · 30/12/2018 23:13

Folks
do give over on the "fulfilling potential" crap
kids in top sets at comps do just as well as kids in grammar school areas
(hence why Kent and Bucks and Lincs are not magically at the top of the results league tables)

If the OP moves to a Comp area
her DD will be in the top sets and get top grades
and her DS will be in the middle sets and get middle grades
or maybe he'll do beter

but there is no "cliff edge" between sets as there is in a grammar area

Jux · 30/12/2018 23:14

Let your dd try for the grammar and if she gets in then send her there.

Presumably her brother does realise he's not as bright as some? Her attainment may spur him on to greater things, but not everyone is suited to an academic life and he may not be remotely interested in one. He may just want to go to whatever comp most of his friends go to.

My elder brother and I both passed the 11+, but my younger brother failed (later his IQ was found to be 145 - well over what you would expect was needed to pass it though). He wasn't crushed. He'd already decided that he wanted to play guitar and that is indeed what he did, pretty successfully. Toured the world many times, played on tv, on radio, on many many recordings with household names etc etc. He was the most successful of the 3 of us.

goldengummybear · 30/12/2018 23:14

I was in this situation and moved into an area with great comps and access to grammars within a 30 minute bus ride away. My kids have all ended up at a comp rather than grammar and there's no regrets. Friends are local and my kids who are old enough to have taken GCSEs managed great results.

GemmeFatale · 30/12/2018 23:16

Is the local comp actually bad? Or does it just not get amazing results because all the local kid’s set on a highly academic path are at the grammar schools? It might suit your son to be one of the brighter kids in a middling crowd. The comp might offer great vocational opportunities that would suit a bright but not academic child. I wouldn’t write it off before you actually see if it would fit your child well.

mbb1 · 30/12/2018 23:17

Grammar schools are not the be all and end all. Go somewhere where both your children will have equal access to the best available education. It's not about girl v boy as some pp have suggested. It's not about depriving your Dd, it's about treating your children equally and fairly . The grammar school system will not do that in these circumstances.

paddyclampitt · 30/12/2018 23:19

Wouldn't relocating be very disruptive for both of them?

brizzledrizzle · 30/12/2018 23:19

Grammar school is no guarantee of future success, I know two boys who went to grammar and it was a big mistake because of the pressure put on them and without that they probably would have done better at a non-selective school. I'd move to an area with a good comprehensive.
We turned down a grammar school place in favour of a comprehensive and it was the best thing we did.

FuckingYuleLog · 30/12/2018 23:21

I’d also say as pp have said that the grammar isn’t a cert for your dd. A very able boy in ds’s year didn’t get in. Sometimes the non verbal reasoning or exam technique can screw over the brightest kids.

MotsDHeureGoussesRames · 30/12/2018 23:24

People relocate all the time. Children manage. They typically forget all about primary friends from the previous area very quickly. It's not hugely disruptive to relocate at all.

Additionally, all these stories from people who felt their parents did wrong by them by prioritising a sibling all have in common one thing: parents who handled things very badly and made obvious their preference for one sibling or their needs/wants. From your OP, I think it's pretty clear that you value both your children equally and want the best for both. Moving to an area with a good comp can provide this.

Armi · 30/12/2018 23:29

Going to a non-selective school in a grammar school area isn’t exactly sending a child up a chimney. It’s not 1959. Your child isn’t going to spend their secondary education colouring in. All schools are expected to evidence challenging levels of progress.

Look at some of the non-selectives for your son. See what they are like.

pyramidbutterflyfish · 30/12/2018 23:29

“So you want to sacrifice your daughter's chance of a good education because her less academic younger brother might be "upset"? Jesus wept!”

What an idiotic comment. As are the others about favouring DS. The OP’s just trying to come up with a solution that gives the best for BOTH children. Ignoring the problem doesn’t solve it.

Effic · 30/12/2018 23:33

Move to an area with better comprehensives. If your DD is really that bright that gaining a place at grammar is a dead cert, then she’ll do equally well in a good comprehensive. Comp schools do have kids that achieve 7/8/9 in GCSE and A & A* at a level. Academic excellence is not achieved at secondary level anyway - it’s just a gateway to university and she can achieve her potential and be challenged etc at university. Also, being at a comp actually enhances her chances of getting into a top Russel group / oxbridge university as more and more of these universities are offering lower or preferential offers to try and balance out the selective/independent advantage.

bookmum08 · 30/12/2018 23:35

All this talk of 'comps' is odd. Pretty much every secondary school in England is 'specialist' in something (so can select a certain % of children related to that - usually via an exam or audition), they usually do streaming which requires a test and they will take, for example, 40% who will be top stream, 30% middle, 30% bottom. Most are Academies so they can basically pick and chose who they want to take - and if there is any SEN Academies are dreadful for that. These schools may officially be marketed as comprehensive but they aren't really.

Ta1kinPeace · 30/12/2018 23:37

bookmum08
Pretty much every secondary school in England is 'specialist' in something (so can select a certain % of children related to that - usually via an exam or audition)
RUBBISH
they usually do streaming which requires a test and they will take, for example, 40% who will be top stream, 30% middle, 30% bottom
More utter RUBBISH
Most are Academies so they can basically pick and chose who they want to take
Absolute and utter rubbish

Comprehensive schools do not select on entry

FuckingYuleLog · 30/12/2018 23:38

I’d be wary of moving to an area with good comps when the youngest is in year 4. So much can change in that time in terms of senior staff leaving etc. You might end up putting your dd in a comp you won’t particularly want either of them going to in a couple of years time.

FuckingYuleLog · 30/12/2018 23:43

Most of the academies where I live do a musical aptitude exam and offer 30 or so places based on the results.

CluelessClaudia · 30/12/2018 23:45

I work in education and I can confirm that what bookmum is saying is complete nonsense!

Ta1kinPeace · 30/12/2018 23:47

Most of the academies where I live do a musical aptitude exam and offer 30 or so places based on the results.
COBBLERS
(or name them so we can check)

FuckingYuleLog · 30/12/2018 23:48

Don’t want to out myself by posting links but my ds sat the exams so I know they do them.
I think the other test the pp is talking about is the fair banding test which is used when some schools are oversubscribed. It isn’t selective as such but is used to make sure that the remaining intake after the higher priority places have been filled are from across the board in terms of ability so they will offer 25% of places to pupils who score in the top quartile, 25% to those in the bottom and 50% to children who come in the middle. At least 2 ex independents in my area do this test alongside musical aptitude.

GreenTulips · 30/12/2018 23:48

An you give more detail on what your DS is like at school and his struggles?

Ta1kinPeace · 30/12/2018 23:52

At least 2 ex independents in my area do this test alongside musical aptitude.
So that is two schools ..... out of the thousands of Comprehensives in the country that do not select on entry

FuckingYuleLog · 30/12/2018 23:53

I don’t want to out where I live but I’ve just Googled musical aptitude test academy and if you do the same you will see they are a thing!
This was one of the first results musicaptitudetest.wordpress.com/category/music-aptitude-test/ashmole-academy/

FuckingYuleLog · 30/12/2018 23:54

It’s 2 that do the fair banding test. At least 5 in the city do musical aptitude. Ds sat 3 of them! The other schools were too far to travel to.