Grammar schools - which dc to prioritise?

[sylviavana]

We have a dd aged 9 in Year 5 and a ds aged 8 in Year 4.

Dd is extremely clever, and has always been top of her class. Ds is a lovely, kind boy but he’s never been a high achiever at school, even though he tries very hard.

We currently live in a grammar school area. As things stand, dd will be sitting the 11+ next year and is pretty much guaranteed to get into a great girls’ grammar school where I know she’ll thrive. She often gets frustrated at school when the teacher has to slow down to help other children - I think a selective environment would suit her perfectly, and I think she’d love being at a girls’ school, as she frequently gets annoyed by the boys in her class who mess around.

However, ds will almost certainly not get into the local boys’ grammar school, and the non-grammar options in our catchment area are not good. They have a reputation for very bad behaviour and low attendance, don’t get good results, and all have pretty crap facilities and buildings compared to the girls’ grammar that dd will be going to.

I’m so worried that this will cause ds to resent dd - that she has so much better a school experience. I’m also worried that it will crush him to see some of his friends joining dd at the girls’ school or going to the boys’ grammar school, when he has next to no chance of getting in no matter how hard he works.

All this is leading Dh and I to wonder if we need to bite the bullet and move as quickly as possible to a comprehensive area, to be ready to apply for secondary schools for dd this time next year. On the one hand it would be lovely for dd and ds to go to the same school and have a shared school experience, and for ds not to feel ‘less than’ but I worry that I would be robbing dd of an amazing grammar school experience. She has never quite fitted in at primary school, and I think she’d do well in an environment where being clever wasn’t seen as ‘uncool’. On the other hand, I’ve heard that comprehensive schools stream in almost all subjects now, so maybe her classes wouldn’t be that different to a grammar school?

Sorry for rambling! Can I ask what you would do in this situation? Which dc’s education would you prioritise?

I’m guessing the grammar is maybe ahs?
Have you looked at all the comps carefully rather than assuming (G?) is the option as if that is the area there is a vast difference and some slightly further out take a fair few out of catchment each year. However if G is the only option I would look to move.
This is coming from someone who went to ahs (and it was an among opportunity) but saw what G did to my sibling.

Do you realise how this sounds to many families who can barely save ‘even’ a couple of tenners?
It depends on many factors, and also on priorities, I have no idea what the OP's situation is, and whether there is any wiggle room in their budget, but neither do you. I know single parents who are living very frugal lives, but paying private school fees for more than one child - because the local state options are extremely poor.

No I don’t know the OPs circumstances but the glib reference that £200 a month is an amount to be described as a bare minimum by the word ‘even’ is pretty.... oblivious to how many families in an average wage and with 2 kids live.

I'm not sure 8 is old enough to judge if he'd pass the 11+ but totally admire thinking ahead. If it were me I'd move to get a good comp and grammar but if you make that decision I'd do it sooner rather than later. It gets harder to move schools/friends as the kids get older. Good luck with it all.

oblivious to how many families in an average wage and with 2 kids live
I am actually pretty sure that a family with two full time median wage parents and two school aged kids should not find it too difficult to find £200 spare out of their joint £3.7K net monthly income, unless they have massive debts. But then, I am a tight-arse.

What the op said about achievement is spot on, the local comprehensive sent four pupils to oxbridge last year (100% success rate) and others to Durham, St. Andrews, Bristol etc, they had many triple a* and as. Bright students will do well at a comprehensive.

You need to prioritise DS really. If what you say is true DD will do well enough wherever she goes (yes she'll probably do slightly less well in a comprehensive but with universities increasingly using contextual offers it will not be a problem) but the difference between a poor and a good school for a more average pupil (especially a boy) could quite easily be the difference between achieving absolutely no qualifications and a set of decent if not spectacular GCSEs and A levels.

Move to Potter's Bar, or thereabouts? If your DD gets into Dame Alice Owen's your DS would be eligible for a sibling place? Not sure. And it looks as if the admissions policy is currently under review atm anyway.

What an odious set up this is.

Thrown on the scrap heap of life at age 11 in 2018..

If there were technical training schools like in Germany and Holland, it wouldn't be so bad but no, it's a shiny grammar and 'a future' or a mediocre secondary modern and, for the vast majority, a life of minimum wage and ZHCs.

No surprise that the Tory party dominates these counties.

If your daughter is as bright as you say she will do well anywhere
This is what I was told over and over, by teachers and other professionals, when I was debating when DD should go to school. In the end, she went to the very average comp and average 6th form and has proven this to be correct as she got A*AA at A levels and now studying medicine.

Both schools were great, recognised DD's ability and stimulated accordingly. Her 6th form understood that anything but AAA was not an option for her and ensured she got the right support to get these grades. It wasn't so much about understanding the subject but having the right teachers with the right skills to teach her to formulate her answers to tick the boxes and get the marks.

The schools were average because of a varied ratio of kids aiming to achieve high. However, overall, the teaching was very good and therefore those children who did want and could achieve high did. I would therefore focus your search on the quality of teaching specifically.

To those saying stay, send DD to grammar and DS private - be careful. Depends where you live again.

I’m in a fully grammar area and unless your DC pass the individual indie exams, which seem to roughly equate to a very solid/higher 11+ score, they won’t get into those either and the alternative indie schools are very average. Round here, grammar stream in one of the secondary moderns would be preference to a lower tier indie....

Bookmum you seem to be mixing state & private above. State schools don't have bursaries as they don't charge fees. A bursary is a reduction in fees.

dilly your post was nasty op doesn't appear to favour her son, by staying she's favouring her dad's education by leaving she's favouring her DS.

I live in a grammar area and the comps are awful, just awful. That's not snobbery I volunteered in one. It was overcrowded, the behaviour was terrible (some kids didn't feel safe walking around school). Results were terrible (even accounting for the fact that lots of the high achievers have been siphoned off).

In my area there are a few indie schools and a few of them definitely seem to be predominantly kids who failed the 11+. The test is just to identify severe lesrning difficulties they couldn't cope with. (There is also a more selective indie too and their entrance exam is definitely competitive).

Op I've not read the thread but I agree with pp who say you can't possibly judge the 8 year old now.

Secondly, tutor him. Unpopular on here but most kids going for the 11+ are heavily tutored. So simply do that from year 4 and get him in grammar school. Less ££ than moving and you will get your wishes

Tutoring a child to pass the 11+ always seems rather short sighted to me. So you have a child who isn't really of the mindset to pass 11+ and go to grammar. You get them through the exam and then potentially throw them in at the deep end in the grammar school for the rest of their school life.

Basically you want both children to go to a good school (that is right for them - so tutoring ds to get into the grammar probably not an option). So I think staying where you are is not an option.

I think moving to an area with a good comprehensive is worth thinking about. My dd goes to one and from what I see she's getting the same experiences and opportunities that I got at my grammar school. (Many years ago now!) I couldn't ask for a better school for her.

There are some local comps near me with poorer reputations and from what I can gather disruption in classes from some pupils is a big issue, so it's not as easy as saying a bright child will thrive. Personally, whatever decision you make I would ensure a good school for your ds is part of that.

I would research schools and seriously consider a move to the catchment of a good comprehensive. Your option of splitting the family is a difficult one, and at some point your daughter will want to socialise with her school friends - hard if she's moving away from the area every weekend. Also difficult for the family to be apart in this way.

My own experience is that a good comp can be a fantastic place so I would start by researching the reputation of schools in areas you'd like to live in. Also visit the "poor" comps in your area and make sure the view you have of them is the right one.

I'm another saying move to a decent all comp area.
You avoid the tutoring at 9/10 rubbish.
A late developer can flourish.
A child with a skewed profile can flourish.
My mid-low achieving kids can flourish to the best of their ability.
What's not to love?

I live in a grammar area.

You're just having the grammar panic. You haven't looked at either school yet.

Let your daughter sit the eleven plus, see what happens. The high school probably isn't as bad as you think - paper tells you nothing, you need to go and look. And you can consider tutoring your son who may not be as middling as you currently think.

(yes she'll probably do slightly less well in a comprehensive but with universities increasingly using contextual offers it will not be a problem)

Not all universities offer contextual offers, not all comprehensives are eligible for them (it can change annually) and in any case, students can exceed the terms of a contextual offer - my eldest had one but didn't need it.

Very bad idea to tutor for grammar school, especially if they are not academically inclined and are struggling with that area, he will be out of his depth in a grammar school and might possibly struggle. Will it be the right environment for your ds, it does not sound like it. I totally disagree with all this tutoring in Yr4 what does it teach children, just to pass the exam. If they get into grammar school, if they are average academically, they will possibly struggle with the work. My friends dd is naturally very academic, they did not tutor her, she passed the 11+ on her own merits. Now at 14 years, even she is finding the work very hard and tiring.

OP I suggest you go onto the secondary board, and enquire about the area you think you would consider moving to. People there can give you current knowledge of local schools.

People on AIBU sometimes judge comps on their experience 20/30 years ago. They also muddle up 'comps' in a full grammar area (i.e. secondary moderns) with comps in an all comp area.

Some areas have great comps. Others not so much. Not all grammar schools are great either. They will get better results because they have selective intake, but that doesn't mean they are better schools.

Personally I'm in favour of comps because I live in an area of Hampshire which has great comps in all directions. They seem to do well with top academic kids, and with the middling, and with low achievers. So it seems to me that poor comps are down to things other than being a 'comp'.

Only poor schools / areas qualify for contextual offers, not all comps.

It kills me that on grammar threads there is always a hard core of posters that think if you simply try hard enough and tutor hard enough your DC will get in. 75% of kids don't.

I grew up in a wholly selective area in the 1990s. In my family 2/3 siblings went to grammar. It took many years for the sibling that didn't not to perceive themselves as a comparative failure, and to believe they could have a decent career rather than assuming they were only fit for minimum wage work.

I chose not to live in a selective area, despite having one DC who would be pretty certain to get through to grammar (I know everyone thinks that, but she got full marks across her SATS), as I have another DC would maybe would, but very possible wouldn't.

My elder child has just started at a comprehensive, has a good number of high-achieving peers, and is being challenged in her classes.

Would you split your family during the week so that both dc could attend the best school for them? Or is that too drastic?

Absolutely not. And honestly - I think that in England people focus far far too much on what school their kids go to. In Scotland we tend to just send our kids to the local school. My son's school would probably fill you all with horror but he's doing fine and is really happy. Plus it is 10 minutes away.

OP, you have a great get out that many with different ability children don't have - your dd would go to a single sex school, so your DS can not go to the same school she did, and you'll have to find the right school for him. When at school, he won't be compared to a brighter sibling. He won't have that baggage of knowing which set his sibling was in for each subject...

Go visit the comps, see what they are really like. I live in an 11+ area and some people slag off the large academy near us without any idea about it. They hark about the bad behaviour, but there's no noticeable difference with the grammar or small faith comp. Really what they mean is it wasn't a good school 20+ years ago, it's results now are completely different.

Go visit with an open mind.

Look for the best school for each dc, including considering the disruption of moving them to new schools in primary.