To ask if anybody on here is pro-life?

[Teeandee]

When it comes to the subject of abortion I've noticed a high number of people on here are very pro-choice and support abortion. Is there anybody else, like me, who doesn't?

Everybody is entitled to their opinion of course and I don't think badly of anybody who has had a termination and I don't judge. It's only my personal outlook and life experiences that shape my view and was wondering if I really am in the minority here?

I'm pro life in the sense that I want women to be able to abort a child rather than dying from pregnancy/labour/delivery/post-natal complications. Rather than dying at the hands of their abuser that they stayed with purely because of their shared child. Rather than living in poverty without being able to afford childcare/food/clothes/rent because they had to give up a job to care for a child they could not afford to care for. Rather than be silenced and controlled by strangers who think they know what is best. Rather than developing mental illnesses as a direct result from having to have a child when they weren't physically/emotionally ready or mature enough to do so.

So yes I am pro life - for the life that actually matters.

Or if so done is pregnant as a result of rape or abuse. I wouldn't judge that.

For the mother, the consequences can be serious, but very rarely does it lead to death. For the child, abortion is fatal.

Yes, to you right to life of the foetus trumps all. In my opinion bodily autonomy and the right of a woman not to be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy and give birth with the trauma that would entail is more important that the right to life of an unborn baby.

I'd also like to point out that the consequences for a woman to being denied legal abortion can very much lead to death, and not rarely either- look at the stats for illegal abortions. You can never fully ban abortion, only safe ones.

Since most of my friends are also catholic it's not a issue.

@colditz - in your comparison, to make it more relevant, the child needing the kidney would need to be your child, and you would somehow need to be responsible for the kidney failure. In that case I'd hope and expect the mother to donate a kidney.

A baby in a mother's womb is not an unrelated third party. It's her child, who she played a part in creating.

I have just suffered a miscarriage of my second child at 8 weeks and that baby was by no means just a ball of cells. I didn't know whether it was a boy or girl but it was a much-loved child. With my first baby I was a member of a mumsnet group on which we were all very excited about our "babies" even pre-12 weeks. No one there referred to their child as a foetus

Now flip it. So what do you think if the baby was not a much loved child

But instead a hated unwanted terrifying prospect

Personally I think people turn to abortion quite quickly. For example a girl i knoe had 4 abortions by the Time we were 20! And I heard through the grapevine she had more in late 20,s (took that with a pinch of salt as it hasn't come from her, we lost contact)

I have never been in a position where I needed to consider this option. And I have had a hysterectomy so never will be In that position.
I do think there are certain circumstances where abortion is acceptable...rape...imagine finding out you are a product of something so hateful, I don't think I would handle that well,
also there are times when the baby will grown to have zero quality of life unable to communicate verbally, be completely paralysed, unable to perform basic care needs for them self. In these sort of instances I think abortion is sometimes acceptable. In instances like a girl i know who used it as a for of contraception I don't think it is acceptable.
Ultimately it is solely up to the women Nd can she handle what she is abiut to do. Saying that, I don't think I would be able to choose abortion even in the instances where I've said it could be acceptable but again I have never and will never be in that position so I cannot know for certain

I do think the contraception argument is an interesting one and one with very clear double standards.

So a woman takes the pill/has a coil/uses whatever other means of contraception, it fails (and let’s be honest here even the stats suggest that the majority of contraceptive failures are down to misuse rather than a failure of the drug/coil etc) but that’s by the by.). The woman finds out she’s pregnant and opts to have a termination. Books into the clinic, has a termination with no regrets and gets on with her life, so far so uncomplicated, except anyone who suggests that she should have used better contraception is slapped down.

Then a woman has sex with a man and the condom splits. She ends up pregnant and opts not to have an abortion. Man is unhappy with this stance. He was wearing a condom and it failed, and he has absolutely no say in what happens with regards to that pregnancy which he took steps to avoid happening. Now he’s responsible for a child he took steps to avoid creating, but do people have sympathy for that predicament? No. If he didn’t want a baby then he shouldn’t have had sex or better still, should have a vasectomy (and yes, I have actually seen this argument brought up on mn.)

Now while I don’t agree that a woman should go ahead with a pregnancy she actively chose to avoid, if we’re not judging the woman’s contraceptive failure then we shouldn’t be judging the man’s either. It takes two to make a baby after all...

I therefore would put the child's right to life first unless continuing the pregnancy would inevitably be fatal for the mother.

What if continuing the pregnancy wasn't inevitably going to be fatal to the mother, but there was just a good chance she could die? Or it wouldn't be fatal but would lead to permanent disability to the mother? Or accelerate a cancer and therefore reduce treatment options? Or cause a severe MH crisis?

so 'babies' conceived through rape have less value than ones conceived through thoughtless sex? seems fairly judgemental to me!

If a woman has repeated abortions are you honestly saying it's better for her to have repeated unwanted children? seriously?

and why judge her and not the MAN failing to use a condom?

How big of people to have a neat little list of what 'they' would find acceptable for someone else to do with their own body

The girl from my post actively chose not to use any type of contraception and on more than one occasion said if she got pregnant she will.go to the clinic.. i used to say pregnancy could be the least of your worries if you contract a disease!

I voted for the amendment of the 8th in Ireland after a lot of thought, research and debate with friends. I can see and understand both viewpoints but for me, and many who also voted to repeal, the 'only a bunch of cells', 'Dont have one if you don't want one' comments come across as dismissive and spectacularly miss the point of the other viewpoint. It is a life as if it was not, it would not have to be terminated and as a pp said, obviously if people think something should be illegal, it's not then just personal to them. Just to play devil's advocate on those two oft repeated phrases. They actually don't help the cause. I feel massively for anyone with a crisis pregnancy and in the end, if my friend or sister came to me, I would help her, accompany her etc. No judgement here but no easy decision either. Tho MN is overall v pro-choice, I've seen so many threads where people regret the decision, that I think the throwaway comments are not so easy to tie in in real life.

@twistedStitch - since you believe that we are talking about a foetus, rather than a human being, I can't fault your logic. If I believed that, I'd probably see things the way you do. In fact, if you take away the humanity of the "foetus"/"child" then your position seems like the kindest option.

For me, however, I can't get past my central belief that a human is created from conception.

I think this conversation is really important, especially if people can go some way to understanding the views of others, rather than demonising and caricaturing them. After all, very few of us are actually trying to do harm - we are all fumbling around trying to deal with very difficult issues and it does help to acknowledge that there are other points of view which don't match our own, but which are equally honestly and validly held.

I am always interested in the fact that I have been knocking around the world and active in women’s rights for a very long time- but have never met a woman who has cheerfully had multiple abortions because she couldn’t be bothered with contraception, but pro life people seem to bump into them all the time. Very curious.

Curious indeed. It’s amazing how many pro-lifers know these women who’ve had 53 abortions by the age of 18, who’ve also had late term abortions. 🤔

My own personal views:

• Is it your uterus? Then it’s not your business at all. Period. Seriously, mind your own bloody uterus.

• Rape exceptions are bullshit.

I’d have a lot more respect for pro-lifers if they continued to give a shit about the child once it’s born. Too many of them - and I’m not saying that it’s anyone on here - don’t once it’s left the birth canal.

@Leelaseye very true. Just think those are circumstances I could only go through with it personally if was in that position myself. I'm all for women having a choice but the as I stated sometimes people just opt.for it too easily like the girl i used to know.

I don't get how a woman you know on at least her 8th abortion in a short period of time is an argument AGAINST abortion. Somebody in the type of mindset that puts themselves through repeated abortions is probably not best placed to care for a child. Allowing her access to abortion and offering counselling is surely a better alternative.

No judgement here but no easy decision either

It’s absolutely ok for abortion to be an easy decision too.

What if continuing the pregnancy wasn't inevitably going to be fatal to the mother, but there was just a good chance she could die? Or it wouldn't be fatal but would lead to permanent disability to the mother? Or accelerate a cancer and therefore reduce treatment options? Or cause a severe MH crisis? Those are really tricky questions and I can honestly say I don't have the answer. However, I'd be interested to know what percentage of abortions actually take place in those circumstances.

I mean no easy decision for me.

I think it's up to the parents, not anyone else. Would anyone who is anti abortion be willing to adopt the children once born? For the majority of them, I doubt they would. As someone else said, they are happy to damn you to hell for wanting an abortion and happy to force you to have the baby, but are not in the slightest bit willing to help struggling parents.

I don't condemn anyone for having an abortion, for any reason. Whether that's lack of money, not ready, the baby has deformities or will suffer once born, don't care. It's their choice. I would make the same choice for all of the above reasons and more. I see the way people with disabilities are treated in the world and its horrible. Children without deformities often have a hard enough time because of bullies, the others are often practically segregated from the other pupils. My cousin got put into different classes just for having dyspraxia and couldn't play sports well. He was smarter than the other children and his twin in the previous 'normal' classes. Need to change the way people view those with disabilities, but considering we've been trying for decades and achieved very little, I'm not optimistic on that front.

toucan12 Thanks for your thoughts. I don't have an issue with presenting people with choices - as long as it's legal (and I agree with abortion being legal) it's their decision to make. I've supported a friend through a termination previously (went to initial clinic appointment with her, and picked her up afterwards), and although she knows it's something I wouldn't do myself I hope she didn't feel like I was judging her.

I just don't think I could actually perform or assist with a termination, - but I absolutely don't judge people who do because they've obviously come to different decisions and are doing what they think is right. It's just that I worry like you say that people would feel like I was judging them, and that would upset the applecart a bit. Is it denying a patient choice to present them with options and then say, if asked, 'no I won't actually be performing it, my colleague x will do it if that's what you decide' if you don't give or imply the reason why you're not doing it? Or is it from a patient's perspective just like a GP saying 'well you could have that cyst removed if you want... no I don't do the minor surgeries I'm afraid, Dr. Y does them, so you'll need a chat with him first.' And they'll hopefully assume it's a matter of competence or remit? That's what I can't quite decide.

I have had 5 miscarriages - and sorry but at 8,6,10,8,7 weeks I did pass a bunch of cells - because otherwise medicine would have intervened to try and save 'them'.

Yes in my head and heart they where my babies - I dreamed about what they would look like, who they would be etc but sorry - they where not actual babies and I find using mc as an argument against choice ridiculous

I wouldn't struggle if I knew someone had your beliefs. I simply couldn't be friends with them
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