To ask if anybody on here is pro-life?

[Teeandee]

When it comes to the subject of abortion I've noticed a high number of people on here are very pro-choice and support abortion. Is there anybody else, like me, who doesn't?

Everybody is entitled to their opinion of course and I don't think badly of anybody who has had a termination and I don't judge. It's only my personal outlook and life experiences that shape my view and was wondering if I really am in the minority here?

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I am still pro-life in those circumstances

Not for the woman.

@JacquesHammer

Of course. It’s a daft statement to make because the father has no rights. None. It’s not the “parents” choice at all. It’s the mother’s choice and hers alone.

I’m pro choice. I wouldn’t necessarily have an abortion myself but I would want other women to have safe, clean and legal access to one if needed.

All banning abortion does is ban safe abortions. If a woman is really determined to no longer be pregnant anymore she will find a way. I’d rather she be able to do it safely and with medical supervision rather than a backstreet one herself.

In the old days women used to bleed to death on the table after botched illegal abortions. It would be medieval to return.

“often to mums who have been ostracised for choosing not to abort.”

Sorry? Ostracised for choosing not to abort? Can you give some examples of this having happened?

Meant to say: I'm working on acknowledging vulnerable adults, and helping them, because they are the "gift" or the "result" from the pro life/probirth argument!

“It's no wonder that people won't admit to being pro-life when as soon as they do, someone's accusing them of being only interested in removing women's rights and forcing women to give birth.”
But that’s what being “pro life” means. Whether you like it or not.

Exactly. It’s not a choice between legal abortion or no abortion, the fact of the matter is that women will abort whether people approve or not, and they will do so at risk to their own lives.

I said on the last thread I’m pro choice to term and I stand by it. Whether I personally would or wouldn’t abort, and for what reasons has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else, and has absolutely no bearing on any other woman and her choices.

I've had phone counselling from a Marie Stopes clinic in a previous pregnancy. Completely impartial and it resulted in me choosing to continue the pregnancy. Nobody bullied me or ostracised me, because that wouldn't be pro CHOICE.

Youseethethingis agree 100%.

Youseethethingis Fri 28-Dec-18 17:24:16
I think I would torture myself for the rest of my life

and that is your choice

"ball of cells". I find that sort of attitude utterly repellent, and unhelpful to the debate.

I find your attitude repellent.

Speakout - mind if i ask why?

I fall somewhere in the middle.

Simply to say " a woman's body, her choice" seems disingenuous to me. Another unique human entity is involved, so the rights of the two need to be balanced. In some cases this is easy: if, for instance, the life of the woman is in danger or where the foetus has a very serious condition- requiring such a pregnancy to be continued to term seems cruel, potentially to both parties. Other cases are more difficult.

I do not think that whether the conception was the result of rape should be relevant: the salient point is the humanity of the foetus, not the "fault" or lack of it of the woman. Rather than compounding the harm of rape by abortion, sentences for rape should take into account the fact that rape risks forcing pregnancy on a woman

Finding the balance is not simple and I have no logically flawless argument. I am not religious so, for example, I think it would be mad and counter-productive to ban the morning after pill; but I find the idea of 12 week abortions for no reason beyond inconvenience morally repugnant. What would constitute a "good reason:? In very general terms I think it would be a circumstance where being required to continue with the pregnancy would cause significant hardship to the mother or her existing children. That standard would need to be better thought out; but once formulated I think it should be strictly applied. I think it appalling that the current requirement of damage to maternal well-being is so flippantly disregarded.

I am not "pro-life" in any absolute sense; but I think that a deep respect for human life should be at the heart of morality and that exceptions to prohibitions against killing should be made very carefully. I dislike the approach of many pro-lifers because it seems more focussed on punishing women rather than respecting life.

I am not "pro-choice" except in a fairly limited sense. I think most people say that they are "pro-choice" because to be anything else is politically unacceptable. Very few of these, however, really believe in abortion on demand to term. The argument that no woman will have a late abortion without adequate cause seems very flawed to me: no-one would suggest that a newborn be deprived of legal protection against harm from the mother (which sometimes happens, albeit rarely) and the moment of birth seems an arbitrary point at which to cut off this protection

OP you're pro choice though.

Pro lifers believe that their choice > abortion is wrong in all / most circs > should be imposed on others. ie abortion should not be legal (some have some exceptions some have none).

On this
"I think the only situation I'd understand personally would be if the baby was terminally ill and likely to be in extreme suffering at birth and inevitably pass away. If aborting would mean the baby suffered less then I would force myself to do what's right for the baby and do whatever causes them the least amount of suffering."

The situation where the mother will die is not mentioned. I assume that you would see this as anoher situation where it would be acceptable. However I find this interesting > on this thread and another recent one about abortion > that people who saw themselves as pro life but with exceptions, allowed for the baby was going to die or was already essentially not alive, but did not mention the life of the woman. I assume that most would not say a woman should be forced to continue a pregnancy that is killing her, but to me I think it does expose an underlying pro-life way of thinking, it's all about the foetus / baby, the woman is not really in the picture. Just an observation but a pretty major one from my perspective.

shouldn't supporting women and their babies be the responsibility of everyone, and not just pro-lifers? Otherwise your support only extends to "That's a shame, but you can just have an abortion". Which isn't really very pro-choice after all.

Good point, in that case I suppose it's not really pro choice but pro abortion.

Not for the woman. Yes, I am pro-life for both the woman and the child. I think the only point that you and I disagree on is that you wouldn't give the "foetus" the same right to life as the mother, whereas I would.

To the person who said they don't see any pro-lifers who are willing to adopt, I'd love you to meet some of my friends.

To the person who said pro-lifers would like a return to back-street abortion....I certainly wouldn't. I'd like to live in a world where no child was 'terminated'.

It's easy to dismantle another's arguments if you caricature them in the way some have done here.

Pro-lifers aren't really the problem. I can understand their pov.

It's the hypocrites who describe themselves as pro-life but are really just about punishing women for having sex. They are the worst kind of people.

"you are unsure how you feel about abortion in cases where the mother's death is a significant risk- if it isn't 'inevitable' it gives you pause for thought. That doesn't sound very pro life tbh. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I am still pro-life in those circumstances, I'm just acknowledging that it is harder and that I don't have easy answers."#

Ah so
Pro life for the foetus / baby
Pro death for the woman

A consistent stance and one that is applied in some countries around the world.

The fact that women who suffer long term physical or mental health issues related to pregnancy or die often leave behind existing children also shows up that this is about pro birth not pro life, as they are not really interested in
The woman
Her family > partner / spouse, parents, children etc
The child after it has been born

It's a very specific position and one that I struggle with TBH.

I am pro-life when it comes to purely ethical point of view. An agnostic too, since I remember myself.
I recognise, however, that sometimes a less ethical choice is also the lesser evil, and therefore I am not anti-abortion. As someone said upthread, "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

The point is that we don’t live in a world where ‘no child is terminated’, we live in a world where, according to Guttmacher, 45% of abortions worldwide are carried out in countries where the procedure is illegal, in unsafe circumstances for the woman. That’s the reality of pro life laws, so yes, practically speaking that’s exactly what ‘pro lifers’ are for, because that is the result of their thinking.

I am pro a mother, preferably with her partner, choosing what is right for her and her family, given the circumstances they are in.

I am pro parents being given education and information to guide their decision.

I personally cannot think of a situation when I would abort a child. I don't think I ever would, but I may well be wrong and hope I'm not faced with a decision like that in my lifetime.

Sometimes the decision to abort feels easier for me to understand and empathise with than at other times. For example, I find it easy to understand a mother who has been raped making that difficult decision, or a mother who has a child that will not survive outside the womb. I have known of woman trying to harm themselves in those situations so baby dies without the need for abortion. That's really sad and unsafe for all concerned.

Surely we should all be in favour of parents choosing the right course for them, their unborn child and being given all the info necessary to make those hard decisions(?)

Yes, I am pro-life for both the woman and the child.

How can you be pro life for the woman if you would subject her to a pregnancy that will put her life at risk? You are given the foetus MORE right to life than the mother when you would deny a woman abortion even if there is a good chance the pregnancy will kill her.

"you are unsure how you feel about abortion in cases where the mother's death is a significant risk- if it isn't 'inevitable' it gives you pause for thought. That doesn't sound very pro life tbh. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I am still pro-life in those circumstances, I'm just acknowledging that it is harder and that I don't have easy answers."

Well yes it means that medical treatment for the woman that may damage the foetus / baby should be with-held
Thus the already born, grown, living, loved, person in the world is deemed of less importance than the not yet person they are carrying
That is a basic pro-life position and the results can be seen in many countries which have more extreme anti abortion laws. Women end up serving life in prison for miscarriages. Women who already have young children. It reeks of woman hating to me but there you go.

Why does this discussion never involve men?

Do we ask the men in these situations to make sure they don't ejaculate in these women?

Do we ask the men not to rape?

Do we ask men to abstain from sex? After he is a responsible adult why can't he control himself.

Why don't we ask men to better manage their bodies and not to go around impregnating women.

Why are men having sex for fun?!!

I am pro choice. Not pro life. It's a woman's right to do as she wishes with her own body! If you don't like it tough luck... we are autonomous beings capable of making decisions for ourselves. These things run in the same vein as women who choose to leave children behind... it's always the woman's fault for choosing herself over anyone or anything else.

It's 2018... why are we still policing women's bodies?!

All these views steeped in religious dogma leave it in the dark ages people. Because if this was a society where religion wasn't so ingrained and abortions were legal nobody would bat an eyelid.
When I was pregnant with my first I lived in China and the first question I got asked was wether I wanted this baby and I was offered an abortion by the doctor... plain simple and straight forward. I was given a choice , no judgement involved. I can imagine if most women were given the choice without shame or guilt involved they would happily take it. As any parent will agree life after pregnancy and birth is a unrelenting.

These types of threads always remind me of when some religious nutters came to my high school (all girls) to talk about abstinence and brought along the message of anti-abortion... one of the ladies presenting told us her son was the product of rape but she couldn't terminate because of God. 😐. No one should have that much power over your life and your own best interests.

Surely that's a discussion about public healthcare though

Yes, I would agree. It's not a moral obligation though that society funds dealing with the consequences of my, or your, desire to have sex.

You may not think the state has a duty to provide abortions, bit do you think they have the right to ban them?

I think they have the right to ban things that the majority of the country find morally unacceptable, e.g. to term abortion for any reason.

Pro life here except for when the pregnancy would result in the likely death of the woman e.g ectopic, serious heart problems, woman in a violent or forced marriage etc.

And I agree, it is very offensive to be automatically labelled as anti feminist/removing women’s rights.

Maybe us pro lifers would like to see a more equal world overall?
Where EVERYONE is treated with kindness and respect, regardless of gender or age?

I for one am extremely concerned with the continuing erosion of women’s rights but frankly there are far bigger threats to women’s equality than abortion.
Violence for instance, the loss of women only safe spaces...

Current research suggests the ability of foetuses to feel pain from 12 weeks.
Abortion currently, is carried out without any pain relief.
From 22ish weeks foetuses often survive.
The limit is too old.
I think it utterly inhumane and immoral.

That is my view, which many will disagree with but i am not going to change my view nor am I going to comment further because it is such a strongly divisive subject and I don’t want to get into a debate on morals and rights.