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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder how much longer school will do nativity plays?

436 replies

GreatestShowUnicorn · 20/12/2018 14:03

As there is no biblical scripture to show Jesus was born at the time of the winter solstice. Surely it’s just teaching creationism or that the world is flat?

OP posts:
Birdsgottafly · 20/12/2018 15:32

DGRossetti, your first explanation of why Christians get bashed was based on Worldwide events. In the UK it has been Christians killing Christians.

Seniorschoolmum · 20/12/2018 15:35

53rdway Grin. Grin

DGRossetti · 20/12/2018 15:37

DGRossetti, your first explanation of why Christians get bashed was based on Worldwide events. In the UK it has been Christians killing Christians.

Except Catholics aren't real Christians. Or is that Protestants ? I keep getting the two confused.

If only there were one true religion. It would make life -and death - a lot easier.

Cherries101 · 20/12/2018 15:38

It’s based on an ancient story that pre-dates all religions (like the Genesis stories). The shooting star /birth of a king with 3 wise men gifting gold, frankincense and myrrh, is told in Hinduism and Zoharasthriasm too.

pigsDOfly · 20/12/2018 15:52

I'm an atheist. I don't celebrate Christmas.

I find it hard to understand how people who get het up about a form of nativity plays being enacted in the schools in, what is after all, a Christian country, are quite happy to go alone with all the Christmas celebrations and then come Easter will be buying Easter eggs.

If it offends you so much to have your children enact this 'made up rubbish' in school stop keeping the festivals in your own homes.

Avegemitesandwich · 20/12/2018 16:07

You haven't come across any Muslims forcing beliefs or way of life on anyone?

I refer you to my previous comment. Not in the UK I haven't

@DGRossetti Really? But you have seen Christians 'forcing' their beliefs upon people? Can you give examples?

Original poster
GreatestShowUnicorn · 20/12/2018 16:11

Faith schools teach it as the truth. Other schools do not in my experience working in school it very much depends on the teachers beliefs. Some teach all religions as ‘some people believe’ others teach it as ‘ we believe & other people belive’

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 20/12/2018 16:18

@DGRossetti Really? But you have seen Christians 'forcing' their beliefs upon people? Can you give examples?

Over the past 1,000 years ... well burning Catholics or Protestants depending whether there was a "y" in the Monarchs name immediately springs to mind.

Or the exclusion of Catholics from various jobs and offices up until the 1800s ?

Since this is AIBU, I was responding to the poster noting that the UK seems intractably able to mock Christianity, but not other religions. I was simply suggesting one possible reason why that is.

If you want to go further, then I tend to agree with the people who note that if you want to be able to make jokes about something, you really need a shared dataset around which to do so. The general lack of knowledge in the UK about Islam, Hinduism, or any other non-Christian religion amongst the vast majority precludes such humorous discussion. Instead it tends towards (as noted upthread) racism, abuse, and nastiness.

Besides, there are Jewish and Muslim jokes and comedians out there who are quite comfortable poking fun at their own religion. Tez Ilyas springs to mind, who's currently doing a fun series of podcasts for the BBC about being a British Muslim ....

BottleOfJameson · 20/12/2018 16:24

Why are people so disrespectful about Christianity? With the exception of the ignorant/racist/bigoted, everyone is very respectful towards Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc but when it comes to Christianity so many people are so bloody rude and disrespectful.

Can you even imagine the furore there would be if the children celebrated a religious muslim festival every year? It's not disrespectful to say that to a large part the christian focus of the British education system is largely historical. Only a tiny minority believe in a literal version of the nativity story. Of course it shouldn't be taught as fact in schools - it's not fact it's a belief. That said the nativity is a fun bit of tradition - none of the kids at my DC's school actually believed it as fact unless they've been told so at home so I'm more than happy to keep it going!

DGRossetti · 20/12/2018 16:29

Can you even imagine the furore there would be if the children celebrated a religious muslim festival every year?

DS quite happily noted Ramadan and Diwali when at school (the Diwali sweets he made were very nice Grin ). I think Hanukkah too, but couldn't swear to it.

Anyway, a lot of "Christian" festivals aren't ....

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 20/12/2018 16:32

Ditto to Woooman.
People who wouldn't dream of slagging off other religions, because it would be so (shock-horror) anti-diversity and un PC, seem to have no problem with our 'native brand'.

Whether you believe in any of it or not - and I don't - the Christmas story is part of our cultural heritage and thus general knowledge.

My Gdd goes to a little pre school affiliated to a C of E church - their (loosely) Nativity based Christmas play was held yesterday, in the church, and judging from the headscarves there were 2 evidently Muslim mothers and their husbands sitting in a front pew. They didn't seem to have a problem with it.

At any rate, the C of E is a very mild entity nowadays. As I think Eddie Izzard once put it, its motto should be, 'Tea and cakes or death!'

bridgetreilly · 20/12/2018 16:37

Plenty of schools, including faith schools, teach that most of the 'traditional' nativity story isn't actually Christian belief - that it was at winter, that there were three kings, that there were animals and a stable. I mean, they probably aren't teaching this in year 1. There's a big difference between teaching that the birth of Jesus is a historical fact, which it is, teaching that Jesus was God, which is a religious belief, and teaching that it was snowing while the cows mooed and the innkeeper was rude to Joseph, which literally no one believes.

DGRossetti · 20/12/2018 16:38

At any rate, the C of E is a very mild entity nowadays

It's the church of choice for atheists Grin

BottleOfJameson · 20/12/2018 16:42

DS quite happily noted Ramadan and Diwali when at school (the Diwali sweets he made were very nice grin ). I think Hanukkah too, but couldn't swear to it.

My DC did this too but they didn't do anything equivalent to the nativity play which actually involves acting out a Christian story as if it's real. (Personally the kids enjoy it and don't take it literally so I have no problem with the nativity but if they introduced an equivalent from a different faith I bet people would take issue).

missyB1 · 20/12/2018 16:44

OP if you don’t like nativity plays then don’t go to them. There you go problem solved!

OlderThanAverageforMN · 20/12/2018 16:45

I am not religious but sent my children to a Catholic school, which used to be a convent. I went there too, when there were Nuns. The school did, in fact, teach all of the scriptures as fact, but in the long run this has made no difference to them (or me before them) in our views that it is just a nice traditional story, and a bit of fun in the deep dark winter. They have since learnt about all religions in their non-faith secondary, and have made up their own minds to reject it all as having no scientific or historical basis.

SockEatingMonster · 20/12/2018 16:46

I love the nativity. I think it’s a very important part of our culture in this country. I do think it should be taught as ‘Christians believe that...’ rather than fact though. The DC go to a non religious state maintained primary which has strong links with the local CoE church and it is very much presented to them as a factual historical occurrence.

That said, I went to a church primary school and was agnostic by 14, so I’m not too worried about brainwashing.

I get more angsty about schools teaching Father Christmas and elf on the shelf as Absolute Fact.

NaughtToThreeSadOnions · 20/12/2018 16:46

Because it's made up nonsense.
HTH
So is any other relgion

agnurse · 20/12/2018 16:49

I read something interesting yesterday. They said that the angel Gabriel announced the birth of John the Baptist when Zachariah was ministering in the temple. His clan ministered during the eight rotation, which takes place around the Jewish day of atonement, Yom Kippur. In our modern calendar this is anywhere from September 22-30. The angel Gabriel came to Mary in the 6th month of Elizabeth's pregnancy. This would make it end of March. You add nine months and get end of December.

The pagan feast of Saturnalia ended BEFORE December 25 so there is unlikely to be a connection.

Jebuschristchocolatebar · 20/12/2018 16:53

Was at my ds nativity play yesterday. He goes to a catholic school and that’s what we choose to believe. The Catholic Church doesn’t really go in for creationism so it goes hand in hand with biology and science. I can’t see my local school ever stopping it, faith is a big part of a faith school!!

DGRossetti · 20/12/2018 16:54

The pagan feast of Saturnalia ended BEFORE December 25 so there is unlikely to be a connection.

I'm sure there are plenty of other (possibly long forgotten) pagan feats to chose from .... and that's before you get into how much the calendar has been mucked about with over the years. Even stone cold historic "fact" (like the eruption of Vesuvius in September AD79) seems to be wrong now.

Tfoot75 · 20/12/2018 16:55

Surely we’ll stop having Santa soon too, as there’s no proof he existed either. Op I think you’ve quite spectacularly missed the point...

cosysock · 20/12/2018 16:59

Is it ok to say Islam is “made up nonsense too”? or is it only safe to say it about Christianity?

FairfaxAikman · 20/12/2018 17:01

I'm not religious but I still think things like the nativity have huge value as part of our culture and think it will alway continue as part of a tradition rather than necessarily as a religious event.

cosysock · 20/12/2018 17:06

Can you even imagine the furore there would be if the children celebrated a religious muslim festival every year?

Well given that it’s a Christian country I should imagine there might be, but can you imagine the furore if Christian festivals were celebrated somewhere like Iran. Somehow i think it’d be more than a “furore”.