To be shocked at this comment about poverty?

[abacucat]

I have been thinking for a few days about a comment a MNer made on a thread about poverty. She said that she has nearly been in tears because a woman at the toddler group she went to had a hole in her shoe and thus had wet feet.
I have a hole in my shoe. I got a wet foot today. I don't think this is a big deal or worthy of "nearly being in tears". Surely it is pretty normal to have to wait a bit to be able to afford to replace things like shoes?
I just do't see it as a big deal at all, and I think this comment was OTT.
AIBU?

If you want I know where you fall this is a tool

fullfact.org/economy/poverty-uk-guide-facts-and-figures/

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/articles/householdincomeandinequalitywheredoyoufitin/2016-02-23

Oh, and your mother died before her time, well, poverty kills. It's associated with poor health and premature death. She was the one who bore the brunt of the poverty you were in and shielded you, the children, the best she could from what was poverty.

I hear you wildones ,,and having read the thread i think i have digressed as it started off with a conversation about a woman with a hole in her shoe !

I am sure there are people living in poverty that is comparative or close to what i endured but on the whole, i feel the majority of the poor are relatively better off than they were in the 70's.

I'm not entirely sure what the answer is. The welfare state cant continue to grow. Its already a monster. We cant tax the rich more for the country will end up worse off due to capital flight.

Even a basic rate taxpayer is enslaved with a true rate of 52% made up of 20% income tax/12% NI and 20 vat if you are to spend whats left !

Even those earning good wages are enslaved !

Arnold
I’d say what you describe is poverty. It may have been the norm for a lot of people back then, but it was still poverty - ie scraping the basics together to live without going hungry but having nothing going spare.
The definition of poverty changes with the times I guess.
Growing up (I was born in the early 90’s), as the child of immigrants who came here without a pot to piss in, I would have agreed that we were poor, but wouldn’t have used the word poverty. But looking back, that’s what it was.
We wore hand-me-down school uniforms, often had a cold strip wash because mum and dad had to choose between gas or electricity and electricity almost always won.
Look at how many people - working people - are having to rely on food banks because their wage isn’t enough to feed, clothe and put a roof over their family’s heads. To me, that is poverty.
I followed the link posted earlier by someone else, and found that my family fit into the poorest 20% of the population. I’d never have thought we would fit into that group, even though we are a single income household. We have very young children and can’t afford childcare for both so it makes no financial sense for me to work right now. My DH is a serving soldier for Christ sake - We don’t go on holiday, we don’t drove a snazzy car, we don’t have the latest technology in the house and we shop at Aldi. We still have to budget to the last penny, and sometimes even that’s not enough to break even every month.
If that’s the reality of my family’s situation, I find it very easy to believe there are millions living in poverty in the U.K. in 2018.

Arnoldthecat Yes you lived in poverty, does that invalidate everyone else's poverty. Do you think people going to food banks are going there for fun?

I live in Mexico where we do have some extreme forms of poverty but I am still shocked by the stories of poverty in the UK. As I said, food poverty is the absolute most extreme form of poverty and yet it exists in the UK. What an appalling shambles of a welfare state.

malificent7- agreed
What’s sad is that 10 years ago it was unheard of, we are going backwards

I had a hole in my boots for a couple of weeks before I could afford another pair. I could have bought a cheap replacement but I love my Animal ones and had to save the money up. I am not a shoe lover - I only have 1 pair of boots, 1 pair of trainers, 1 pair of wellies, 1 pair flip flops and 1 pair of going out shoes so didn't have many options for a cold, wet work day!

There are many answers Arnold

Was it not under Thatcher that the council housing stock was all sold? Taking away the main source of security for many poor people, to live in a secure home with low rent. This has pushed millions of people into private renting which has risen in cost dramatically. In 70’s people were not using 60% of their income for rent

I would happily pay more tax if it were to support the vulnerable/nhs/education. Wages definitely need to be increased so that working poor is not such an issue and so that you are better off working. I’m a socialist and I think we need to follow to economic models of the Nordic countries.

Thanks for sharing Mybrediseggy....

So this discussion has grown massively from the hole in the shoe to how to fix UK PLC and the lives of its people. We are doing well.

So what are the solutions...?

Well when i was a kid, there were jobs aplenty. Thousands of jobs for unskilled people,ordinary people who were perfectly decent but who were not highly educated. It all worked well. People earned enough to look after their families and have some treats. Maybe they didnt have great wadges of aspiration bolted on,,essentially they earned enough and were happy with their lot.

Fast forward and today,well the low skilled jobs in manufacturing and similar have disappeared. You have to have a certain level of education to get training to get work. Its a generalization but if the school is poor and your parent(s) are not well educated and dont drive you,well your off to a poor start.

The state cannot keep delivering benefits at the rate it is doing and it cannot keep increasing them at the rate it is doing. True the state is big and wasteful. There are many savings to be made. Government organisations are notoriously bloated and wasteful. Take the NHS for example, and our foreign aid budget.

So then ,if we accept the problem,,what are the answers??

The answer is that wages need to increase. We have very low wages, but very high wages for the well off. It is not like that in all countries.

"pookie do
There are many answers Arnold

Was it not under Thatcher that the council housing stock was all sold? Taking away the main source of security for many poor people, to live in a secure home with low rent. This has pushed millions of people into private renting which has risen in cost dramatically. In 70’s people were not using 60% of their income for rent"

Great point,,, some would say that council housing bred a ghetto mentality and institutionalized people but then at least they had a roof over their heads. Did you know that HM Government has squandered billions funding their flawed help to buy scheme and help to buy ISA's? Thats one saving,lets chop all of that and build more community housing which is regulated,has rules and ejects those who persistently misbehave.

I personally have no desire to pay more tax. I pay enough. I want leaner Government and less waste for there is plenty of it going on..

I just don't think you can compare with the good old days.

We never went out for meals apart from maybe a grandparents big birthday. And we never had takeaways. We didn't really go out to places apart from very rare treats for birthdays. My parents would never dream of getting a takeaway coffee and a tea out was from a thermos flask. So this is my life too now ( minus the flask) but people expect these things to be the norm now.

I feel poor if I don't buy a coffee at a play place with the other mums. I don't want to waste the money as I've just paid the entry fee.

gggggogogo

Indeed ,,i dont think poverty ever leaves you. I notice further up the thread there is a link to the ONS and which gives comparative incomes. I'm now in the top 20% but even now, i dont waste anything and i still hunt out the bargains. Perhaps it is the fear of what i experienced that drives me now.

I haven't read the whole thread and am aware we are discussing how 'poor' someone is. Can I however suggest to everyone walking around in shoes with holes in them, go into a shoe repair to see if there's anything they can do at a much lower price than buying new or have a look in charity shops for something to keep you going.

Well; the issue is that this kind of problem is so normalised we don't see it as poverty, but you know yes it is. No one should be walking around in holey shoes they can't afford to replace. Saying "oh it's just how so many of us live" normalises it and that's shit.

Yes, it's poverty. It's not living in a shoebox poverty, but it's still poverty, sadly.

Arnold, I can see your tales of woe and raise you. I'm simply not going to bore everyone,

What you describe is poverty, what the op describes is poverty, there is degrees, my own up bringing does not blind me to poverty and decide if anyone has it better than I did then they are alright.

As such I believe you're talking nonsense. Because if you'd grown up like that and you had dragged yourself out of it, you'd understand exactly what poverty was. Exactly what it was. And you don't. Not even slightly.

I personally have no desire to pay more tax. I pay enough. I want leaner Government and less waste for there is plenty of it going on.

You may not have no desire to pay more tax but I think we need to. The 'I pay enough' doesn't really work and isn't really for you to decide. I don't think most people pay enough tax to cover what they actually use in healthcare, education etc and I say that with my OH being a higher rate tax payer. He does pay a lot, but does he pay enough, obviously not. The NHS is in a mess and I can see education heading back to what it was in the 80' and 90's with kids having to share text books 1 between 4 and school buildings in poor condition. It's appalling that there are children going hungry and people making the choice of being warm or being fed, never mind buying shoes. I could sit here thinking 'well I'm ok and people need to budget better' but the fact is that even the people who are budgeting are really really struggling if an unexpected expense occurs. The stress many are under day to day is huge and that leads to a lot of other issues. Paying a bit more tax would still leave us comfortable but may actually mean the poorest people can actually afford to live. Leaner governments, where do you feel they are wasting money ? I'm not a Tory voter but what do they cut next ?

I personally have no desire to pay more tax. I pay enough. I want leaner Government and less waste for there is plenty of it going on

Me neither, I'd rather what was collected now was better spent.

I think poverty does leave people or so many wouldn't be making the same poor choices for themselves as adults or for their children.

I've had shoes that I loved that were irreplaceable that I've worn with holes in. More than once too. And I am far from on the breadline.

I am amused that someone might have gone home crying about me because I can't bear to part with my comfy old trainers.

Shoes can cost very little indeed, 50p from charity shops sometimes, so it was probably more a priority/choice thing than poverty.

Clearly I should have R more of the FT

There are a number of definitions or types of poverty - social poverty, absolute poverty, relative poverty. However the UNESCO definition of absolute poverty: "Absolute poverty measures poverty in relation to the amount of money necessary to meet basic needs such as food, clothing, and shelter"

So if you can't afford shoes without holes, and you're not blowing all your cash on your opera habit, it's probably poverty. Just because it's normalised does not mean it is not poverty.

@Arnold women on UC are having to prostitute themselves to make ends meet. They are not better off and it is still poverty/destitution.

This is poverty.

Also I'm really struggling to understand why people who class themselves as earning a decent wage, would only have one or two pairs of shoes. In reality I know no one like this. Trainers, at least 1 pair usually 2, boots (at least 1 pair, usually 2), smart work shoes, interview shoes, going out shoes ... I understand families who struggle couldn't have all those,. But someone who is earning a decent wage having just one or two pairs? I also don't understand liking a pair of shoes that much you wear them with holes in.

As for not having time, I think that's just odd. I mean we're all lazy at times, I am. But not lazy enough to walk around in holey shoes. And even if you are - takes 5 minutes to order online. Everyone on this thread has internet so there's no excuse