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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be shocked at this comment about poverty?

552 replies

abacucat · 18/12/2018 23:52

I have been thinking for a few days about a comment a MNer made on a thread about poverty. She said that she has nearly been in tears because a woman at the toddler group she went to had a hole in her shoe and thus had wet feet.
I have a hole in my shoe. I got a wet foot today. I don't think this is a big deal or worthy of "nearly being in tears". Surely it is pretty normal to have to wait a bit to be able to afford to replace things like shoes?
I just do't see it as a big deal at all, and I think this comment was OTT.
AIBU?

OP posts:
Bluntness100 · 19/12/2018 16:22

What would be classed as poverty nowadays would be far from it back in the 70s. I’m not saying that’s right or wrong, just offering a different perspective

Bullshit. Poverty then was not being able to afford a pair of shoes, to have to prioritise the kids shoes or food on the table and it's still poverty today. There may have been more extreme poverty (and I doubt it) but it was poverty then and it's poverty now.

I grew up on the seventies in poverty, And witnessed the juggling, buying cheap food, not being able to afford shoes or a new coat, and there is no way to classify it then or now as anything other than poverty.

Why do people keep trying to say it's not poverty if there are people worse off and in extreme poverty. That's a ludicrous sentiment. Poverty has many levels,,,from deciding if it's shoes or food but can't afford both to the living on the streets or visiting a food bank.

Poverty is and always has been the same for many decades, just the extremes may differ.

LakieLady · 19/12/2018 16:27

I know of one single mother living in conditions that would break your heart and universal credits are taking back an overpayment at 50% of her weekly allowance... tax credits would take 20% maximum and negotiate if it was too difficult... UC will not.

Yes, it's brutal. At work, we've started challenging a lot of overpayments on the grounds that it is caused by official error/is unreasonable to recover. A lot of them seem to be HB overpayments too. We're also putting in a lot of compensation claims where the idiots at DWP have told people they have to switch to UC when they haven't met the trigger conditions, some of those have resulted in massive losses (over £100 pw in some cases).

Handsoffmysweets · 19/12/2018 16:31

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request

Handsoffmysweets · 19/12/2018 16:31

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request

Bluntness100 · 19/12/2018 16:34

Honestly it read like you were agreeing with Arnold. You were saying what was poverty today would not be classified as poverty in the seventies that's not correct, it was.

Handsoffmysweets · 19/12/2018 16:40

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request

jessstan2 · 19/12/2018 16:43

A lot of people are saying the same thing and also saying, "When I was....", etc.

The important thing is to fight poverty NOW! So many of us are immune to it because we don't see it in our everyday lives, we can't help that but we can do a little bit of gentle research and it will hit us in our faces.

I'm an ordinary person who is very comfortably off now but was very poor so have empathy. There are charitable organisations we can support, we don't have to make a big thing out of it, whatever small change we can afford will make a difference.

The Trussell Trust is a great foodbank organisation, we can donate money if there is no collection point nearby.

If we personally know of someone hard up, don't give them money or food obviously, find some way of doing it anonymously and discreetly and tell no-one. Never let our left hand know what our right is doing.

Give anything good that we don't want to a charity shop.

Try and put ourselves in their shoes (no pun intended as this thread started about shoes).

5fivestar · 19/12/2018 16:45

Handsoffmysweets - the jist seems to be ttay they’ve convinced her to get it paid off quickly - but it doesn’t attract interest unlike the loans that she’s had to take out to cover Christmas - it’s sad to watch but you can’t over ride the authority that someone at the benefits agency has over these young women

missperegrinespeculiar · 19/12/2018 16:47

Have not read the full thread, so sorry if I repeat other posters' points, but I am not sure if it is normale or not (should look at data for that!), it is not normal in my circles, no, but regardless, I do feel it shouldn't be normal, we shouldn't be accepting this as the norm, people in such a rich country should not have to budget for shoes, as PPs have said, they are a necessity (fancy designer stuff excluded of course!)

abacucat · 19/12/2018 16:51

Single people who are unemployed or on sick leave get £73.10 a week. Out of this they will have to top up their rent (they will get some of it paid), utilities and food.

OP posts:
Hannnnnnnxo · 19/12/2018 17:05

I do think it’s borderline poverty. Walking around with holes in your soles in this weather (rain, mud, freezing) is terrible - new shoes aren’t a luxury here but a necessity. It’s not like you’re trying to be fashionable, you’re just trying to protect your feet for winter; especially for children. Either the shoes were of awful quality to begin with (ie cheap) or they have been worn to death and needed replacing earlier.

I read an article online about poverty in school children where teachers stated how they see children in sandals/summer shoes as their parents can’t afford to get them suitable winter shoes, with taped up shoes (eg the sole had come apart from the shoe, holes etc), going to sleep in their school uniform as they don’t have pjs etc, by today’s standards that’s indicative of a poor household.

For perspective, I’m not rich but I have enough shoes to the point that I never wear any of them down enough to get holes in. And if I did, I’d be able to replace them sharpish instead of having to make do until payday as I would consider that a necessity.

PookieDo · 19/12/2018 17:05

My opinion is not that benefits need to be increased as such but the systems that trap people into poverty.

Over payments is a prime example. I’ve had to repay nearly £5k in overpayments during my eldest DD’s 16 years, no ‘system’ has ever managed to work to benefit the people it is supposed to be helping. Delays in the system, human errors and computer problems often end up costing people who don’t have very much anyway to fall to their knees

I’ve also said this before. Work doesn’t really seem to pay. You are only better off once you earn over the cap - so you need to be taking home net income of £25k (AFTER tax) and be on a trajectory of increasing salary to see any benefit to you. You could work 16 hours a week for min wage or 37 hours a week for £10 - when universal credit/tax credits ‘tops you up’ you all come to the same levelled out amount don’t you? Then add in the fact that most low income people end up paying at least 40% of their total income to rent alone, if not more. So unaffordable housing costs, less support with council tax since 2014, UC delays and benefit overpayments could mean that a family spends years trapped in the same cycle never getting out

abacucat · 19/12/2018 17:10

No you do not need to be taking home over £25k if you do not have children at home.

OP posts:
PookieDo · 19/12/2018 17:17

I am clearly referring to parents with children at home, which is usually the reason single parents or parents with young children aren’t both out at work bringing in £50k between them

Cornishclio · 19/12/2018 17:29

I think if you are unable to feed, clothe and house yourself and your family adequately then you can be deemed to be poor and I am sure that it is widespread in the UK. Low wages, high debt, extortionate housing and childcare costs and rising food prices help to keep people in poverty. Many, many families have absolutely no savings to cover the basics and I would consider a washing machine and certainly shoes (even a £30 pair) to be a basic necessity if they had no other suitable winter shoes. Walking about in wet feet is not ok for children or adult.

I get why the OP does not want to feel she is being pitied or looked down on but not to have access to £30 until payday means she is poor. Maybe compared to her childhood she feels well off and maybe her family and friends are in the same position but it is not ok that in a relatively wealthy country like the UK people are living payday to payday. Do you earn enough to save anything usually and it is just because it is Christmas things are tighter than usual?

5fivestar · 19/12/2018 17:30

The thing is, I was better off on benefits until the day the kids left home then I was fucked so I’m taking a short term hit of £6000 a year on the basis that house prices will have risen by a lot more than £60,000 in 10 years and I’ll be secure in my dotage. It’s jyst hard to explain that or just an impossibility anyway to most people in my situation

Arnoldthecat · 19/12/2018 17:35

Well i can see it hasnt taken long for people to react somewhat vehemently to my posting. I promise you i tell the truth and i shall further elaborate...

My mother and father never married. My mother parted company from my father for various reasons. She brought us up on our own in the 70s. We were Catholic and relied very much on the catholic church . Remember those xmas collections at school where you were asked to bring in non perishables and tinned goods to make up food parcels for the poor at xmas? We were on the receiving end courtesy of a pre xmas visit by the parish priest.

We lived in a draughty council flat. The only form of heat was a coal fire which had a back to back range which also hated the hot water. We only had lino and the add mat on the concrete floor . We had a crappy black and white tv that was rented. The windows were metal,single glazed and the wind howled through them. In winter they froze inside and out.
To supplement the heating, my brother and i would go and pinch coal off the railway sidings about half a mile away. It was dangerous of course and trespassing.

Sometimes i would go out with my mother to the park or cemetary with a shopping trolley and collect fallen wood to burn on the fire.

Food was basic and simple. At Christmas if we were lucky we would have a chicken.

As i say, we rarely had new clothes. Sometimes my mother would drag us to the social security office to blag a grant Giro off them by showing them how scruffy we were. That was before the days of crisis loans. The catholic church ran charitable centres where you could go to get some second hand furniture and clothing. The parish priest would give us a letter to go.

As ive said, ive known my mother pick up seemingly serviceable discarded shoes and clothing and take it home and wash it for us to wear.

I remember a neighbour, a single mother,,one day her gas had run out and she needed a shilling for the meter. One of the local lads went round her flat and shagged her in exchange for the shilling,,she was that desperate.

A woman round the corner ho was also a single mother also seemed to have quite a few male visitors. I was friends with her kid and they would tell me the man/men were their "uncles".

In those days there were no pressure groups,no screaming media, and the only rowntree i had heard of was the name on discarded sweetie wrappers.

But as i say, guess what ,we all got fed, we are all still here and we all are working and have never been jailed or been in trouble. My mother died long before her time of cancer.

I will have to check what passes for poverty now...but again,even then, i wouldnt have classed us as living in poverty. We were certainly poor but the state safety net saved us and kept our heads above water and i for one have repaid them many times over.

PookieDo · 19/12/2018 17:35

No I understand as I have 2 years to get off because my child will turn 18 and I will have the same house/bills but half the money. I don’t own a home but either she has to leave and I downsize or she has to help pay more than I would like her to in bills so we can stay - I don’t want the pressure of an 18yo having to support ME so I am trying to get off any benefits but it is really hard. Interviews and training - and I am lucky to have some of the opportunities I do!

PookieDo · 19/12/2018 17:41

@Arnoldthecat
Thank you for sharing
That is poverty. You now feel that no one understands ‘true’ poverty. We are all saying there are degrees of it. You can’t compare now with 70’s.

Indeed I lived in a similar property during the 80’s when councils had no obligations to make them warm, safe or hospitable. Councils may have improved but that’s not where people are living. They are living in just as cold miserable horrible housing under private landlords who treat them badly. People still use charity. Rents are very high in the south and this eats into all the benefits. You have companies like Brighthouse selling things at 1676% APR to people who can’t get credit. IMO not as much has changed as you think, except the world has moved on in technological advances. Those at the bottom are still at the bottom

Arnoldthecat · 19/12/2018 17:58

I honestly get what people are trying to say. Poverty is relative. If i went into a "poor" persons home today and told them of my childhood tales they would think i was making it up just as some have intimated on here.

More tales of childhood woe..

We never had holidays. My mother would save pennies in a piggy bank every week and we would have a day trip to blackpool on the bus. Believe me, it was as good as any week in Spain for us then !. I remember one occasion a nun from the local parish piling us all into her small church minivan and running us up to blackpool for the day.

Washing machine? No chance,unheard of. My mother did all the washing by hand. Big stuff like bedsheets got stuffed in the bath and pummelled with a podger,,all manhandled. Wet sheets can be very heavy.

But the thing is,,we NEVER had debt. If the money wasnt there,well it wasnt bought. The very most that could be said of any credit would be that sometimes essentials would be bought from a catalogue such as grattans or burlington, repayable at 20 or 38 weeks as i recall.

I remember some occasions where we would go to the fruit and veg markets after they had closed on a saturday and collect any discarded fruit and veg that had been left out for disposal. It was edible but not of good enough quality to be sold. Those who live in Manchester may well recall the old large smithfield market that used to be on Shudehill.

In winter if we had run out of coal and couldnt get any and we had burned our stock of collected firewood from the cemetary, i can well remember one time when we emptied out a wardrobe in the bedroom and chopped it for firewood.

The UK welfare state IS generous. Thats why so many flock here to avail themselves of it. Not very far away even in many Eurozone countries the state is far less generous and people rely very much on charity or family to help them rather than being autonomous claimants of state benefits.

3WildOnes · 19/12/2018 18:04

Arnoldthecat you grew up in poverty and so did those around you (having to prostitute yourself to have gas is clearly poverty and also heartbreaking) plenty of people live in similar conditions today.

3WildOnes · 19/12/2018 18:08

How can you not see that having to steal to or prostitute yourself to heat your house is not poverty.
And saying other countries have it worse is not the point, it’s not a bloody race to the bottom!

malificent7 · 19/12/2018 18:09

Well dd needs new school shoes as her Peimark ones have holes in. I can't afford to replace them till January. Luckily she has trainers to tide her over.
On the plus sude we have plenty of food i and a roof over our heads. Not sure how skint one has to ve to be poor but not being able to shell out for school shoes is quite rough tbh..

malificent7 · 19/12/2018 18:10

Primark sorry...

PookieDo · 19/12/2018 18:12

Just because it’s worse elsewhere doesn’t mean it’s not bad in the U.K.

The welfare state keeps people alive and not eating out of bins. It isn’t improving lives in the longer term. We may be better at meeting some of people’s basic needs than other countries but it’s still nothing to be proud of.