Why the the leavers so scared of a second vote?

[StrumALum]

I don't get it.

The leavers were fed some lies, that much is obvious.

What I don't get though is that if the leavers are so sure of themselves then why are they so worried about a second vote? If it's 'the will of the people' then it will be the same outcome anyway.

Or are they panicking because now the lies (like the bus) have been exposed, people are now more clued up and they were relying on people not being clued up to get the vote through in the first place?

And, tbh, I don't think the referendum was democratic in the first place - if nobody even knew what "leaving the EU" actually meant at the time, then why did they ask us such a bloody stupid question? They could at least have worked out what they meant by it before they asked.

Exactly.

If our elected representatives decide we need another referendum to work out where to go next with the mess they have made, I consider that pretty democratic.

In the 2014 elections the largest share of the vote was for anti European UKIP at over 26%. A further 23% were for the Tories voting for a referendum and large scale reform in Europe (which the EU refused to give).
The Conservatives were elected in 2015 on a manifesto promising a referendum.
Leave won the referendum.
Over 82% of votes at the last GE were for parties promising to deliver Brexit and only 7.4% for the remain supporting Lib Dems.

It’s quite clear a lot of people weren’t happy with the EU and wanted change. The prospect a second referendum could happen has allowed the EU to offer us the worst possible deal to force us back in. They could have offered us a better deal and opted for a mutually beneficial friendly relationship. Instead they’ve chosen to be hostile and only offer options which are unpalatable precisely to hope a second referendum will force us back in.

A lot of people who loathe the EU would be forced to vote to remain with the options currently on the table. I know remainers think if they won a referendum that would be the end of that and the matter would be closed. I think it’s much more likely that there would be widespread civil unrest, upheaval and much bitterness. A lot of people would quite reasonably think the richest in our country had colluded with the EU to silence the voices of the most disadvantaged in this country.

I don't think anyone believes this mess will end in March.

Whatever happens this fiasco will rumble around for years. It will impact on our relationship with the EU, stay or go. It will impact on our economy, and society is split in two.

It is likely there will be civil unrest whatever happens. It is likely civil unrest is actually the aim of some Brexit supporters on the extreme left and right.

The long term effects will be felt for decades.

The EU were always going to be difficult to negotiate with because they have highly skilled, highly trained expert negotiators. We knew this before the referendum. Why people are surprised or shocked is beyond me.

These highly skilled people used to be on our side and get the best deals for us as members of the EU. We rejected them.

Brexit - stay or go - will leave this country in tatters.

Augusta2012 - of course voting remain next time wouldn't solve anything. If you think Brexit will be any more successful at preventing civil unrest, you have another thing coming. When Brexit doesn't appear to be solving anyone's problems (and given that even ardent pro-Brexiteers agree it will make the country poorer before, if ever, it makes it richer, and our public services are already close to collapse), it won't take long for people to get seriously pissed off again.

It is fantastic, fertile ground for extrmists, though - stay and we can blame the EU for everything. Go, and we can still blame the EU for everything, because "they" are mean, nasty bullies who chose to be mean to us when we were lovely and deserved better.

I'm not surprised Putin and Trump were two world leaders who expressed their public support for Brexit.

One thing that interests me, Augusta2012, is that you think Brexiteers may conclude that the richest in this country colluded with the EU to stay in, when Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Farage and the like are all extremely wealthy and powerful individuals. Are they actually secretly backing remain?

There’s no such thing as politically binding. Either something is legally binding or it’s not.

Absolutely, the Referendum was not legally binding.

The electorate voted in a government on a manifesto promising a referendum. They voted leave in the referendum. They voted overwhelmingly for two parties who promised to deliver Brexit.

Manifestos are not legally binding either.

Politicians have a duty to the electorate

Politician’s duty is to the country, they are not delegates.

If you can’t see the difference between delivering those with a clear mandate and giving away concessions to a hostile and aggressive opponent for nothing in return and massively weakening our negotiating position - well then you have very little sense.

And there we have it. 37% of the electorate is not a clear mandate, and nor was “Leave” specifically defined on the ballot paper to give any kind of clear directive.

The EU is constrained by its own treaties and rules. “Hostile” and “aggressive” is your own subjective opinion. The EU has been implacable that it it will not compromise the single market.

The UK had no negotiating position because (a) it didn’t know what it wanted and (b) May’s red lines determined what could be on offer and (c) a 51.9/ 48.1 split is in no way a clear mandate.

You just don’t like the fact he protected our negotiating position

Publicly announcing that you consider the protocol you have just negotiated is not worth the paper it’s written on is not the action of a competent negotiator.

All he did was show the EU that the Uk was not negotiating in good faith.

There’s no such thing as politically binding

May be not in legal terms, but certainly there is in moral terms. If Brexit doesn't happen, who do you think those millions who voted for Brexit will vote for in the next general election? They won't be voting for either Labour nor Tory who they'll feel didn't follow the referendum result. They'll vote for a new anti-EU party and we'll be back to where we were a decade ago. You can't just ignore the will of a huge proportion of the population and get away with it - the main parties had been papering over the cracks of anti-EU sentiment within their own parties and the population for a few decades and just look where it has led us. Had Blair/Brown vetoed free movement of the East Europeans when they joined the EU, we wouldn't be where we are now - that's because it was undemocratic - they never asked the voters. Ultimately, voters have the power - it may take time, but the anti-EU movement isn't going away even if the current pathetic politicians don't Brexit this year.

Brexit - stay or go - will leave this country in tatters.

Which is solely the responsibility of previous governments and politicians who've ignored the ever growing anti-EU sentiments in their own parties and throughout the country. Sweeping it under the carpet never works. Blair/Brown should never have "rubbed the noses of the right" by allowing free movement from the Eastern European new EU entrants in the noughties - they had the power to veto/control, but chose not to. Since then, the anti-EU movement massively increased support and influence.

Kazzyhoward - and when we leave the EU but it doesn't actually fix the problems those who dislike the EU think it will, what will happen next? And what problems are you hoping it will fix? And in or out of the EU, do you actually think Tory or Labour are worth voting for?

And in or out of the EU, do you actually think Tory or Labour are worth voting for?

No, I think both parties need to be disbanded as neither are fit for purpose and havn't been for a couple of decades at least. Both are split on the pro/anti EU issue but neither has addressed their problems. Both parties are rooted in history and havn't moved on to be relevant to modern times. Likewise are their voters which is why you could put any fool into some historically strong Labour or Tory seat and they'd win even if they did nothing - just because people vote the way their parents did regardless!

Such a shame that Clegg ruined the Libdems - they were doing OK until he sold his soul for personal gain/power in the coalition, but are now a busted flush that will never be taken seriously again this generation.

Luckily, I think the Brexit foul up has the potential to split both main parties, so looking forward to seeing what comes out of the bloodbath.

You can't just ignore the will of a huge proportion of the population and get away with it

Something for the Tories to bear in mind as we get shoved towards No Deal - 37% of the electorate voted Leave, 35% specifically voted not to Leave, yet we’re getting a hard Brexit at best.

Can we call a ceasefire on Brexit talk until 3rd Jan? Certain posters are obsessive. Give yourself a break..its going to effect your mental health.

Brexit - stay or go - will leave this country in tatters.

Absolutely this.

Why we aren't all demanding Cameron's head on a platter I don't know.

What a lovely idea @Russiawithlove . Let's just not think bad thoughts.
Actually, I can tell you mean it kindly. We are all going to be bombarded in the media because there is loads of fun copy they can produce . Like when it's snowing.

The best way to avoid it is to steer clear of MN Brexit threads. And the news. And FB. And Twitter. And ....

Let people decide for themselves how to cope.

Why we aren't all demanding Cameron's head on a platter I don't know.

And Blair & Brown too, and let's not forget Clegg. We've had a series of incompetents in power and perhaps a fiasco like Brexit is needed to kick the lot of them up the backside.

Certain posters are obsessive.

I suspect some are paid trolls

I've said before (either on here or elsewhere) that if there was another vote, I strongly predict Leave would get a higher percent than it did in 2016. I'm not particularly welcoming to the idea of another vote but not at all frightened by the thought of one.

What I don't understand, however, is the push for one. Because I see the scenario like this: May presents her deal, it gets rejected by parliament, we have a 2nd referendum, Leave wins (by a higher margin) and then...what? No Deal? People on here (apart from Bellinsurge, apologies if I have your name wrong) that are pushing for another referendum are also the ones saying No Deal would be disastrous. Obviously if you think Remain would win then another vote seems like a good idea, but I honestly think Leave would get at the very least, 55% in another vote.

Augusta2012

The prospect a second referendum could happen has allowed the EU to offer us the worst possible deal to force us back in. They could have offered us a better deal and opted for a mutually beneficial friendly relationship. Instead they’ve chosen to be hostile and only offer options which are unpalatable precisely to hope a second referendum will force us back in

Someone else blaming the EU for our self-inflicted woes!

May signed this deal, she signed it on behalf of the UK, the EU signed it too, WA is not covered under Consumer Contract Regs with a 7 day cancellation period!
May going back and expecting to re open negotiations is the height of bad faith, EU could give in to May's new demands, sign...again... only for May to back in Brussels in a few weeks!

No, she agreed to this deal of her own free will, she must accept the consequences and the blame for her fcuk up.

Why would the EU offer us anything else? We're so hopeless we can't "take back control" of a fucking airport perimeter!

I suspect some are paid trolls

Does anyone know where I can apply for this kind of work please?

badlydrawnperson It’s great, well paid, but the downside is you get paid in rubles. However, I know some good Brexit proofed emerging markets funds based in Dublin that are overseen by one of our comrades

Does anyone know where I can apply for this kind of work please?

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