Why the the leavers so scared of a second vote?

[StrumALum]

I don't get it.

The leavers were fed some lies, that much is obvious.

What I don't get though is that if the leavers are so sure of themselves then why are they so worried about a second vote? If it's 'the will of the people' then it will be the same outcome anyway.

Or are they panicking because now the lies (like the bus) have been exposed, people are now more clued up and they were relying on people not being clued up to get the vote through in the first place?

Jesus @MagnificentSevenHeaven how is a complex multinational arrangement in any way like having an abusive partner? You need to grow up. Which is pointless to see because you clearly love your flounce. It makes you feel all strong and empowered.
Deluded.

bellinisurge would you say that a successful Brexit is on balance, good for the EU or bad for the EU?

I'd say it was bad because any catastrophic ruction is bad. I would say risking GFA is bad for Ireland.
But it's worse for us. We might currently be a nice big market and a bridge to the US but that is all about to go to shit and any sensible business would stop trying to sell to a depressed market until it is in a better position to buy. There are other markets to sell to.

A successful Brexit can only happen through the WA. Where we all have a chance to make it less shit.

I voted leave, and am against a second referendum - not because I am worried about the result, but because we were told that the Government would implement the result of the first one and therefore to rerun it would be undemocratic.
If we were to have another referendum the question would need to be agreed, and for me it should be two choices; to accept May's Deal or Hard Brexit. This is the only question that honours the decision of the first....
To say that people didn't know what they were voting for is a fallacy, people in this country have understood the concept of the EU for decades. The government sent out (taxpayer funded) leaflets setting out its position.
Neither side covered itself in glory in the last campaign- stop wheeling out that damned bus as an example- there were dozens from BOTH sides and the public know to treat every line from every politician with scepticism

Its not undemocratic to have another vote.

The "we were told" thing is crap, the referendum was advisory and Parliament is sovereign.

The remain campaign did not lie.

I can see why it now looks like we’re trying to extricate ourselves from an abusive relationship. What’s really quite unfair is that since the UK voted to leave, the EU have treated May - and by extension, the British people - with contempt and are trying to punish us for leaving, despite the fact that the UK has been the second largest contributor to the EU for decades. Before Germany reunified, the UK was the top contributor.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect some goodwill from an organisation to which we’ve contributed positively for many years. It was largely the UK and Russia (mostly Russia, later the US) that prevented the destruction of Europe during WWII. A little goodwill isn’t too much to ask.

@bellinisurge You're boring, very boring.

I've had to dig out my old Tampermonkey Script just for you....

"The EU have treated May - and by extension, the British people - with contempt"

Give an example of how they have done this.

The UK has chosen what red lines it will chose, and has negotiated this deal.

The "with contempt" thing is only because the leave voters aren't gertting all their own way.

Which shows that they had little idea what they were voting for.

I'm so deeply affected by you not listening to me. It really is a trial.

"Despite the fact that the UK has been the second largest contributor to the EU for decades"

No it wasn't, there was the rebate from the 1980s.

The ‘we were told’ thing isn’t crap.

The government’s own leaflet to all households contained the line - in bold - ‘This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.’

So you can’t blame people for feeling that they were misled - they were. The referendum vote could be ignored, but voters would then justifiably feel that they were lied to by the government.

The "we were told" thing is crap.

Because you didn't listen to the other government advice which was to reamin.

Its selectivity. But then all leavers are selective with what they want to here.

"This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide."

Doesn't matter... that was a different government

Give an example of how they have done this

Jean-Claude Junker referring to May’s negotiations as ‘nebulous’.

hahhaha

You mean they weren't clouded?

Its hardly an example of contemptt! Its quite accurate.

In fact the contempt is DD and TM making an agreement with the EU, then coming back and telling the domestic press that they wouldn't have to stick to it.

Jean-Claude Junker referring to May’s negotiations as ‘nebulous’

He was absolutely accurate.

Because you didn't listen to the other government advice which was to remain

Me? Or Britain in general?

The government isn’t there to keep Britain in the EU if the populace don’t agree.

Doesn't matter... that was a different government

So now you’re moving the goalposts. You cannot deny that people were told this by one government and accepted it as true - but somehow it ceased to be true when government changed, and people should have just realised that without being informed?

I'm very concerned that holding a second vote would seriously undermine democracy in this country.

However, I also think it may be the only way now to break this deadlock situation that we find ourselves in. If the government and MPs can't find a way forward then what other alternative is there, other than to put it to the people (or crash out with no deal obviously, but I think the vast majority of people agree that no one wants that).

"You cannot deny that people were told this by one government and accepted it as true "

But it wasn't true, the referendum was advisory.

That’s my point though - I think we agree on this! The government published that leader and it misled people. So you can’t blame people who feel that they were lied to - because they actually were.

"This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide."

Doesn't matter... that was a different government

So now you’re moving the goalposts. You cannot deny that people were told this by one government and accepted it as true - but somehow it ceased to be true when government changed, and people should have just realised that without being informed?

That same Government told the electorate that the UK would not leave the single market. That has ceased to be true when the Governbment changed.

Leaflet. Autocorrect!

Where is all this utter crap about the EU punishing us and treating us with contempt coming from? How can anyone who has followed this shambles in any detail actually believe this?

The UK initiated this process. (And just as accession is a rules-based legal process, so is leaving.) The EU have been following the agreed rules. They were waiting for us to come up with detailed proposals on which they could negotiate and it took two years for us to do this and even then we were still fighting among ourselves as to what Brexit really means. The UK side of the negotiation has been an utter shambles. The EU have been rather restrained and remarkably patient in the circumstances I think.

The EU punishing us and treating us with contempt narrative comes because the leave voters and campaigners don't want to accept responsibility for their actions.

The campaigners because they sold the electorate something that wasn't possible.

The voters because despite the wealth of evidence that the leave campaign was lying, and selling them something that wasn't possible they voted anyway.

Lets be honest the entire leave vote and anti EU thing was down to immigration, and xenophobia, everything else is just a front.

Where is all this utter crap about the EU punishing us and treating us with contempt coming from? How can anyone who has followed this shambles in any detail actually believe this?

I like to talk about things and discuss them, but this is what people come up against. Being told they’re talking crap because their perception of life and the world is different.

Look, Slightly, do you just want people to give up talking about the issue, or are you interested in understanding other people’s points of view?