Why the the leavers so scared of a second vote?

[StrumALum]

I don't get it.

The leavers were fed some lies, that much is obvious.

What I don't get though is that if the leavers are so sure of themselves then why are they so worried about a second vote? If it's 'the will of the people' then it will be the same outcome anyway.

Or are they panicking because now the lies (like the bus) have been exposed, people are now more clued up and they were relying on people not being clued up to get the vote through in the first place?

Rufus the LSE research found 64 per cent of 18-24s who were registered did vote, 65 per cent of 25-to-39-year-olds and 66 per cent of those aged between 40 and 54 voted.

Thanks buteo

I was fairly sure i posted that but i couldn't be bothered to reread my own post

The politicians to blame are the politicians who were available.

The Brexit Ministers were the ones who headed the campaign. Leavers voted for the views and ideas these people espoused. TM for all her faults has pushed ahead with Brexit means Brexit.

You got what you voted for.

Unfortunately, what you voted for was always impossible, unclear and an absolute mess. That's what you've got a mess.

Reason number 786 for voting remain.

Moussemoose

The Brexit Ministers were the ones who headed the campaign. Leavers voted for the views and ideas these people espoused.

All leavers?
Most leavers?
Some leavers?

The needle is stuck.

Exactly, a leave vote was a vote for uncertainty and confusion. Leave meant nothing. Views (plural) were espoused, the vast majority lacked clarity and focus. Leave meant different things to different people that was apparent.

People voted for something that was a mess and guess what - it's a mess!

People who had spoken up for leave and encouraged people to vote for it were put in a position to negotiate it and they all ran away.

You got the mess you voted for.

Moussemoose

Its mess because the politicians didn't do their job and find out want people wanted after the vote.

They rushed in after demands from the EU that Article 50 was activated ASAP.

They should have shut them down at that point and said 'In our own time'.

But yes its a mess.

It was apparent the politicians didn't have a plan and were incompetent. Did BJ ever realistically look like a politician who could lead?

They were all noise, bluster and sound bites.

And yet people voted for them. The people who voted for them, and the cause they espoused - must take responsibility.

Moussemoose

Are you also happy for those that caused this to take responsibility? (and I am not just talking about the shower of shit politicians for both campaigns or politicians in general)

This is the symptom not the cause.

And the cause is still not being treated.

Yes people need to take responsibility.

Like any historical event we will eventually consider both long and short term causes. The media, most politicians using the EU as an easy scapegoat, austerity all played a part.

However, at the moment there is a clear trigger cause of the mess: people who voted for Brexit.

We will struggle to get out of this mess if people will not accept culpability, or that at the very least they were hoodwinked.

While voters still believe, the EU is undemocratic or Turkey will join the EU and then make decisions based on lies we can not move forward.

Moussemoose

People voting for Brexit is the trigger not the cause.

We will struggle to get out of this mess if people will not accept culpability, or that at the very least they were hoodwinked.

And how will you get people to admit that when threads have been so full of people not listening to people and calling them thick and racist?
I had a thread the other day that was just kicking a brexiter because there was no point in engaging.

While voters still believe, the EU is undemocratic or Turkey will join the EU and then make decisions based on lies we can not move forward.

and this is an example, this is what you believe are the reasons for people voting for brexit, they are a couple of the reasons but not all.

and the response needs to be more of a discussion other than 'you are thick', 'racist' etc etc. ad infinitum.

Yes there are now some people that want to talk but there are still many in the wings waiting to stick the boot in.

But I have said this before and been ridiculed for it.

We will struggle to get out of this mess if people will not accept culpability, or that at the very least they were hoodwinked

I don’t think anyone who voted Leave will have a problem accepting responsibility- it may be a positive outcome yet. We just don’t know. None of us knows what’s to come in the future. But Leave voters weren’t ‘hoodwinked’. They made the decision that seemed best to them. It’s dismissive of a whole swathe of the population to presume them stupid and ignorant just because they didn’t vote the way you feel they should have.

Let's have a look at some of the threads on MN at the moment.

I have replied at least twice to posters saying the EU is undemocratic in the last few days. I have been on a thread where someone has claimed Muslim immigration is unprecedented and a threat to our way of life. Posters throw stones about democracy when the U.K. constitution contains an unelected chamber and virtually no checks and balances.

There is a profound lack of understanding about NI and the backstop.

I have listened very, very hard and all I have heard is "we won why do we have to explain".

When people put forward arguments like "the EU is undemocratic" when it is demonstrably untrue what can you say? Leavers are not stupid yet they continue to say stupid things.

A 'trigger cause' is an expression for something that lights the fuse. The assassination in Sarajevo was a trigger cause. The referendum was a trigger cause for Brexit.

Not scared at a second vote I just don't see the point. 17.4 million gave the mandate to leave the EU.
No second vote it's required.

We’ve heard silly things from both sides. It’s not contained to Leavers.

Isn't all politics lies anyway ? When any party ask for your votes they suggest policies and changes. They do not stick to them, they are not commitments. Then people get annoyed and a new Leader is chosen or a new party.

And let's face it no ones likes to be told they made a bad choice, so I'm sure a lot of leavers would be stubborn enough to vote leave again. The point is more people cared to make a change than wanted to carry on.

When people put forward arguments like "the EU is undemocratic" when it is demonstrably untrue what can you say?

Typical remainer logic. Votes take place therefore its democratic. Complete failure to understand what democracy is.

Remainer states: "Its democratic that foreign countries decide what happens in the UK because foreign countries vote on it"

Leaver : "Its believes only democratic if people in the UK get to decide what happens in the UK, when we vote on it".

[facepalm] #takebackcontrol

@Walkingdeadfangirl oh the irony!

You know remainers say it's democratic because we as well as the other member states get a vote? Then our govt decide what to do with that and how far to take it.

Not scared at a second vote I just don't see the point. 17.4 million gave the mandate to leave the EU.
Still trotting this out despite so many people pointing out that so much more information is available now about how leave will affect us. Presumably you don't vote in general elections because we voted once?

I'm fed up with wasting my time "blaming people ". You all know what your own conscience tells you when no one is listening or looking at you as to how much of this is your fault.
Forget the blame issue for now (it's hard and I have a list ), we need to focus on putting pressure on the government to avoid No Deal. We need to call out any idiot who talks about "managed no deal". That is total bollocks. People will suffer food supply/disruption or even shortages. That's the most likely scenario. No one needs that. We must make a lot of noise to get that stupid option off the table.
I don't give a shit about increased roaming charges or other bollocks like that you read about on the BBC - I'm old, we actually did manage before mobile phones- that's just a distraction. No Deal would have terrible consequences and must be stopped.

17.4 million did not give the mandate to leave like this. They were sold a fairy tale based on lies.

Businesses are horrified,many will care about their jobs and pensions.

We need a second vote to see how many leavers are left now they know the actual Brexit they're getting and the reality. If they are all still pro leaving then we have to suck up this disaster.Insanity to force something on people they didn't even vote for.

Moussemoose
Let's have a look at some of the threads on MN at the moment.

yes lets
"fuck them"
"thick oiks"
"racists"
"Didn't know what they were voting for"

There is a profound lack of understanding about NI and the backstop.

Yes its a massive problem, maybe the remain campaign should have made more of it.

A 'trigger cause' is an expression for something that lights the fuse...The referendum was a trigger cause for Brexit.

So ignoring the 'mansplaining' you have just contradicted yourself.
Yes the trigger was the referendum (not the voting public). But it wasn't the start of this.

Anyone that refused to talk about peoples issues citing racism, people not being able to understand or even its a local issue is culpable.

Ok @BoneyBackJefferson , I'll bite.the Remain campaign did talk about NI. A lot. Or tried to. Faridge shut it down with bollocks about giving in to terrorism and the BBC and others let him off the hook.
It was all over MN for anyone who bothered to look at a view that wasn't theirs.

Walkingdeadfangirl you have proved my point unfortunately for you. You are confusing democracy with sovereignty.

The EU is democratic. Not because 'a vote' takes place but because of the way the institutions are set up and run. The Council of Ministers is an elected body, The parliament is an elected body. There are checks and balances on their powers. They function differently to the U.K. but they form a democratic institution.

The point you make about sharing power is one of sovereignty not democracy. You do not think it is democratic because other countries get a say in decisions - that means you believe our sovereignty is diluted. I can argue that point if you want.

And then you imply I don't know what I'm talking about and

This sums the situation up. You fail to understand some simply points, insult me and I have to engage explain and treat you with respect.

What mousse said

In her first three paragraphs

In history we talk about long and short term causes and then a trigger cause.

In my first post on this I mentioned a number of long term causes - politicians, the media, austerity you could include the EU itself in this list.

Then there are short term causes of which the referendum was one. It may perhaps be referred to as a trigger cause.

I was explicit that the referendum was not the start of this. However, people were involved in the referendum which is one reason we are in this mess.

I'm sorry if you think I am mansplaining but I am trying to explain something you are a little unclear on. Again as a remainer I am criticised for explaining things but as the post below demonstrates no matter how often I post and explain levers make the same mistakes time and again.