Why the the leavers so scared of a second vote?

[StrumALum]

I don't get it.

The leavers were fed some lies, that much is obvious.

What I don't get though is that if the leavers are so sure of themselves then why are they so worried about a second vote? If it's 'the will of the people' then it will be the same outcome anyway.

Or are they panicking because now the lies (like the bus) have been exposed, people are now more clued up and they were relying on people not being clued up to get the vote through in the first place?

That's not an ad hominem argument 😂

"Were you up in arms when TMay called another democratic GE. Afterall we had democratically voted in the Tories for another four years. How dare she democratically re-ask the same question?"

We needed that GE as the government had changed so much with the Brexit vote that it no longer represented what we had voted for whereas another Brexit vote would go ahead just because a percentage of people didn't get there own way.

We needed that GE as the government had changed so much with the Brexit vote that it no longer represented what we had voted for whereas another Brexit vote would go ahead just because a percentage of people didn't get there own way.

Huh?!

We need a Brexit vote more than we needed a GE, because we need to clarify what Leave wants. Does it mean No deal, May's deal or now that people understand that Leave means we screw the GFA and the economy is that what they want.
I don't understand how that would be undemocratic.

One person was convicted?? Unless you know different...

So what hasn't been investigated to know that Leave Campaign overspent and was fined, there has been a lot of people looking into the leave campaign on the whole, hence why Cambridge Analytica is no more. What more investigations should take place?

It was you who jumped on the thread declaring that it was all fraud and dodgy money, you have yet to point out why russian oligarchs on the remain side are somehow OK.

You then stated that:
Under the law had this been an election it would have to have been run again...

Which I pointed out, is not as clear cut as you made it out to be

"Were you up in arms when TMay called another democratic GE. Afterall we had democratically voted in the Tories for another four years. How dare she democratically re-ask the same question?"

That's slightly different though, that was primarily to stop the calls of "she has no mandate" and as they thought shore up a majority like the polls indicated, it was also kind of another run through as both Labour and Cons were standing on a manifesto pledge that they would stand by the decision.

A second referendum would achieve absolutely nothing.

Firstly you have to get Parliament to agree what the question is going to be. There doesn't appear to be any concensus on that.

Secondly, there are now 3 options facing the country. May's Brexit deal, a No Deal Brexit or revoking Article 50 and remaining. You can't have 3 options on a referendum, particularly where none of them seems to have any kind of majority. For a referendum to work one of those options would need to get more than 50% of the vote.

That's slightly different though, that was primarily to stop the calls of "she has no mandate" and as they thought shore up a majority like the polls indicated, it was also kind of another run through as both Labour and Cons were standing on a manifesto pledge that they would stand by the decision.

It's very different, but it's also very much the same. We thought we were voting for Conservative but then they decided to throw another election...But Democracy means you only get to vote once, apparently.

Similarly, the Cons elected TMay as their leader, then some of them changed their minds and insisted on a re-vote. How is that democratic then?

I'm in favour of a new vote, but I can also see the downsides that ti would cause.

We thought we were voting for Conservative but then they decided to throw another election...But Democracy means you only get to vote once, apparently.

It doesn't and all this talk of "muh democracy" is just shit flinging by both sides.

The majority of people who are calling for a second ref are wanting to water down the leave side so remain wins by default.

This is a good article.

One person it quotes -

"They think Brexit only happened because of “austerity” – not because we are utterly sick of the lot of them. They think they can once again dip into our wallets to dish out electoral bribes and we’ll be ok with them pissing on our votes.

They reckon we didn’t really mean to leave the EU – and that it’s just the underlying issues they need to fix. It doesn’t occur to them that the underlying issue is the fact that we hate them and their EU vanity project. It’s all just a management and PR problem to them.

They genuinely think we’re too bovine to care about things like self-determination,. democracy and accountability – and we’ll pack up and go away if there’s a top up of regional funding. We all know nothing would change if we trusted them.

As much as anything, we voted to leave precisely because we have an establishment that will continually do as it pleases and ignore the rest of the country when we protest. Even now they don’t get it which is why they can so casually talk about overturning a vote.

They don’t recognise that Brits genuinely want regime change and a change to reshape Britain – and all they offer us is more of the same – more taxes, more authoritarianism and more paternalistic meddling while they heap on the insults. The fact that these well compensated individuals parade Blair, Major, Adonis and Campbell on our screens honestly thinking it will win people over tells you everything you need to know."

It seems that those who bleat about democracy whilst trying to argue against a second referendum see democracy as the rules to a game, like football but for running a country- so somewhere it’s written that you only get one go and if you massively fuck it up, oh well, you’re stuck with it, even if it means the utter fucking destruction of the economy and widespread misery lasting for generations.

Utter fucking idiot children, the lot of you.

and if you massively fuck it up

But that's only the perception of the people that don't want to leave.

The people that do want to leave don't run around wailing hysterically.

They know that we'll be just fine.

So why should we have another vote just because you're worried?

even if it means the utter fucking destruction of the economy and widespread misery lasting for generations.

Hysterical tosh.

Grow Up & Grow a Spine.

even if it means the utter fucking destruction of the economy and widespread misery lasting for generations.

Look what happened to Germany & Japan 70 years ago - utter fucking destruction of infrastructure, people and economy.

Yet within living memory (not generations) they've not only survived, they're at the top of the game.

The referendum was to leave. The resultant general election returned May as PM under a "leave" ticket. We're going to leave! No need for another referendum.

If someone can tell me a positive reason for voting leave then I will be against a 2nd Vote

They don’t recognise that Brits genuinely want regime change and a change to reshape Britain – and all they offer us is more of the same – more taxes, more authoritarianism and more paternalistic meddling while they heap on the insults.

Agree 100% with this.

@Geoffmd7
Because it will make Rees-Mogg, Johnson and Gove a lot richer?

I said positive not a negative reason! oh and it most likely wouldnt make them richer TBH

@Kazzyhoward , no argument we need a fundamental rethink of how we do stuff. So why flush everything down the toilet to get this. No deal will be a total catastrophe.
Talk about "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

How on earth can weakening ourselves financially and in every other way be a sensible way to bring about "regime change"?

How on earth can weakening ourselves financially and in every other way be a sensible way to bring about "regime change"?

Many leavers objected to the grip that the EU has over the member states, run by unelected leaders whose accounts haven't been audited and signed off in over a decade - and the mission creep from what was only originally ever sold to us as a trading agreement.

Maybe they believe that this is a price worth paying (at least in the short term) for independence. The same would be true initially for Scotland if they did eventually leave the UK, but people seem willing to accept that independence for many Scots might mean more to them in the long term than some short-term economic woes.

Nobody yet knows how things will pan out when (if) Brexit actually happens - in both the short term and the long term - but a lot of leavers seem determined that their fears have been scientifically pre-vindicated and that every single Brexit voter only did so on the strength of something that was written on the side of a bus and/or because they must 'obviously' be racists.

It's like (some) vegans who patronisingly assume that omnivores can't possibly realise that meat comes from dead animals and subsequently campaign endlessly to 'educate' people of this extremely well-known fact which will enable them to make 'THE right decision'.

If you really think that all Brexit voters were won through what they read in the Leave-side literature (and, going on how some remainers are reacting, one could be forgiven for assuming that all leavers must be too stupid to be able to read anyway), ask everybody you know if they have EVER read a party election manifesto in full (let alone just the last one). If, as I suspect, you find that the answer is a tiny percentage, I presume you'll be campaigning for every future general election result to be instantly overturned and re-run until the result is one that you're happy with.

Why the the leavers so scared of a second vote?

Why are (some) remainers so scared of democracy?

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll - love your user name btw - I'm a Remainer who is scared of a second vote because No Deal might be an option. There are enough people who just might be stupid enough to take that option.
I'll take WA because we are screwed without a transition period. Great

If someone can tell me a positive reason for voting leave then I will be against a 2nd Vote

The reason: There was a democratic vote and the majority opted to leave. Adults were all invited to tick a box to decide and the results were calculated based on one vote per box ticked.

The choices offered were effectively just a Remain or Leave and no justifications for each individual's choice were requested or would have been accepted as each adult was free to reach their own decision based on whatever reasoning they deemed appropriate.

Of course, if you want to start a campaign to deny the vote to some adults based on their age, educational qualifications, bank balance, political stance, background, job, sex, race or whatever, you're perfectly at liberty to do so. You wouldn't succeed, but nobody would stop you from trying.

I live in a mainly Brexit voting white working class area and the vast majority of the people that I know who voted to leave did so because of immigration and most of them were to stupid to even realize that there is 2 types of immigration (EU and Non-EU), most of these people also shared a lot of propaganda via Facebook in the run up to the vote with videos being shared showing thousands of middle eastern men on the march towards or through Europe and that these stoneage men were going to be heading for the UK...this sort of thing influenced millions of Brexiteers whether people want to admit to it or not!

@bellinisurge

Thank you

You are clearly one of the thinking people (unlike so many on both sides).

The basic decision as to whether to remain or leave was given to the people and now the people have made their choice, it is the job of the politicians to do their job and implement it as wisely as they are able.

I completely agree with you that it makes no sense to hold a further referendum on the execution of the decision - the politicians' job is (supposedly) to use their knowledge and experience to carry out the wishes of the people. The majority of the people have stated that they wish to leave, so the baton is now passed to parliament to get on with it on our behalf, as they deem most appropriate.