Why the the leavers so scared of a second vote?

[StrumALum]

I don't get it.

The leavers were fed some lies, that much is obvious.

What I don't get though is that if the leavers are so sure of themselves then why are they so worried about a second vote? If it's 'the will of the people' then it will be the same outcome anyway.

Or are they panicking because now the lies (like the bus) have been exposed, people are now more clued up and they were relying on people not being clued up to get the vote through in the first place?

which is what extremist meatheads want you to say.

No idea what this means

Moussemoose

How do we get a choice though?

The system that we have is stacked against truly independents from running and even if the odd one manages to get elected they won't achieve anything in parliament against the major parties.

I can really see why people are getting jaded by this all.

We elect individuals. If we truly held our MPs to account and voted against the ones that lied we could raise the level of debate.

When people say "they are all liars" it lowers the debate. I am on the left, but I don't like Corbyn, he is not a liar though. I dislike TM but she is not a liar.

JRM and BJ not there are a couple of liars.

We have had the vote. It's democracy.

That was the decision. Vote #2 would be on its implementation. I wish they'd say that more. And "democracy", as Moussemoose said, comes in many different forms, it's not a magic word that just gets everybody else to shut up.

Let's put it this way....

The general election, do we as non conservative living people, get a second vote?

Why not, we lost!

Of course, it's one vote to decide. If one.lot gets more votes, they win, simple.

As for the very weak argument... You were lies to. Hark at ee! The conservatives lied their are*e off to get in again, and yet knowing this, you don't scream for a second vote. As adults you knew that not everything was as shiny as they.led you to believe. Do you not think, we too knew it was a "rosey glasses" situation, but decided to leave anyways?

I personally am fed up of the strangle hold, a NON VOTED leader has on our country. They treat us with disdain, but always want our money, because WE ARE a wealthy country (I wish we all were!) Due to our products n services.

It's the UK a lot of Europe comes to, to earn a good wage.

I didn't choose to leave based on the lies BOTH sides were fed. I do believe tho, that stayers have been "feared" (sic) into wanting to stay.

I'm sure I'll get plenty wanting to disagree, but that's YOUR opinion, and you won't change my mind.

If we truly held our MPs to account and voted against the ones that lied we could raise the level of debate.

But I can only vote against my MP if I have an alternative. There are some parties that I would never vote for on principle so that restricts who I can vote for. Plus, although we elect individual MPs I am always aware that if you vote for an independent MP or one who is unlikely to be elected then you might facilitate the formation of a government from a party that you are opposed to so oftentimes it doesn't feel as though you have a choice or any power to change things either.

macblank the EU is a democratic institution. The Council of Ministers and the Parliament are fully democratic. The leader of the Commission is similar to the head of the civil service.

As a country with only one elected chamber we are not in a position to throw stones.

I don't want to change your mind but I would like the 'facts' you use to make your decision to be actually factual.

As for the very weak argument... You were lies to. Hark at ee! The conservatives lied their aree off to get in again*

Well Labour are led by a passionate life long leaver who has now decided been ordered by John McDonnell to support remain for some reason.

macblank the EU is a democratic institution. The Council of Ministers and the Parliament are fully democratic. The leader of the Commission is similar to the head of the civil service.

Ho ho ho. So leavers whinge about only of the electorate voting leave in an election with 72% turnout.

But apparently elections which have a turnout of 24% which returned candidates only 5% of the electorate voted for are just fine and dandy.

Augusta2012 I can't quite make out your point.

Are you saying that because the turnout is low the institution isn't democratic?

This would mean the majority of local councils in the U.K. were undemocratic.

Or is your point about the electoral system used?

The EU is constructed in democratic way. If we in the U.K. do not avail ourselves of the opportunity to vote how is that the fault of the EU?

In some countries voting is legally enforceable - Australia is an example - I like the idea. Would that make the EU more democratically accountable?

If there is another vote, I'll never vote again in any election

Oh I will, but it'll be for the party/person that I think will shake things up and be best for what I want.

I'll also be joining the campaigns to lobby against FPTP.

UKIP had 4 million votes yet got one MP - think how glorious it'd be if party MP's were based on the number of votes the party got - you'd lose all these "safe" seats & we'd get a chance to oust the lazy, self serving MP's we have now.

Now that'd be democracy.

macblank the EU is a democratic institution. The Council of Ministers and the Parliament are fully democratic. The leader of the Commission is similar to the head of the civil service.

If the EU had Europe wide political parties and all Europeans could vote on the same manifesto, that might be true.

But we’re all presented with different manifestos that the parties know they have no chance of implementing. All they can do is promise that the will try and be vaguely right or left wing. It’s probably the most undemocratic ‘democratic’ system that could possibly exist.

If there is another vote, I'll never vote again in any election

That is exactly what the left and remain want. Don’t play into their hands, they want to disenfranchise us. Don’t do it for them.

Moussemoose
We elect individuals. If we truly held our MPs to account and voted against the ones that lied we could raise the level of debate.

Successive governments have changed election boundaries to keep their choose few in power. (this has not long been changed to stop it happening)

In various safe seats around the country you could parachute a chimp in a clown suit in to the area and they would still get elected.

All the U.K. parties are part of European party alliances. So the Labour MEPs are part of the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats (something like that).

I think trying to get Europe wide agreements would be virtually impossible and would lend truth to the claims that we are looking at a federal Europe.

By each country keeping its national interests as paramount we avoid a federal Europe. I though that is what anti European groups wanted?

In terms of undemocratic democracies our 'elective dictatorship' which contains an entirely unelected second chamber and a FPTP system which allows parties that lose the popular vote to gain power is pretty much a leading contender.

I have long campaigned for serious constitutional change. I have argued the point about electoral reform long and loud.

No one cares.

Moussemoose
In some countries voting is legally enforceable - Australia is an example - I like the idea.

And if this should happen we should have a none of the above box, to be able to register a negative vote.

A remainer and exhausted by all of this. My family will be affected by leave.

But no appetite for a second vote or an election (no one I’d vote for). Want it done now so we can see the new world order.

Brexit, to me, has morphed into a religion for hard line brexiters.

They need us 😂😂😂😂😂
This is not the brexit we voted for ((erm there was leave or remain-no one had thought of leave plans they point)
Take control of our laws (I ask which laws and always met with silence).

The damage is done already.

Moussemoose
I have long campaigned for serious constitutional change. I have argued the point about electoral reform long and loud.

No one cares.

yup and yup.

The damage is done already

I think the damage has only just begun.

Augusta2012 Voter turn out in euro elections is around 38%, in GE's around 64% has been as low as 59% in 2001.

We don't have minimum turn out in UK elections (Unions aside) so any election is as valid as any other.

The general election, do we as non conservative living people, get a second vote?

Yes we dam well do! in the case of 2017 just two years later!!! we lost (3 in a row!!!) and the Cons are still here :(

How the fuck is more voter engagement LESS democratic??? if we still wish to leave on Mays deal or No-Deal, thats fine by me...

Should Parliament vote a no confidence motion in the Government, they get a second vote to see if they are absolutely sure, so why can't we?

If there is another vote, I'll never vote again in any election

That is exactly what the left and remain want. Don’t play into their hands, they want to disenfranchise us. Don’t do it for them.

I don't. I think it's a terrible thing to have a vote and not use it. Your tendency to lump groups of people together and denounce them en bloc really weakens the quality of your arguments augusta.

If there is another vote, I'll never vote again in any election

Why? Because you don’t like the idea that people are given the opportunity to change their mind?

Because you don’t like the idea that people are given the opportunity to change their mind?

Not when it comes to running a country.

The People are fucking stupid. I wouldn't trust most to change a light bulb let alone make an important decision.

It's why we elect people to make those decisions for us.

And they passed the buck in 2016 and are still passing it now.

They need to grow a backbone & bloody do something...

The People are fucking stupid. I wouldn't trust most to change a light bulb let alone make an important decision.

And yet that is what our elected MPs decided to do. So stop moaning and grow up.