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Original poster

To blame Have I Got News For You for the mess we’re currently in?

384 replies

BertrandRussell · 13/12/2018 09:03

None of this would have happened if Johnston, Farage and Rees-Mogg hadn’t been invited on and been allowed to present themselves as “good sports”.

OP posts:
TatianaLarina · 14/12/2018 09:02

There’s a fundamental failure in this country to understand that global rules trading in the 21c involves some degree of harmonisation on regulations and customs procedures. Whether in blocs or PTAs.

Prof Dougan has also made the point elsewhere that the U.K. has far more power in the EU than the right wing papers and politicians would have you believe.

That U.K., Germany and France are the big 3 in the EU and nothing can happen without our agreement.

Having studied tables mapping our starting position on many issues and votes - interestingly the vote outcomes were more often nearer our starting position than they were Germany’s.

The idea that France and Germany always get their way and that the U.K. has no say is not borne out by the facts.

Fundamentally the Leave vote is one based on naivety, prejudice, sentiment.

longwayoff · 14/12/2018 09:08

And bitter whinging ignorance.

BorisBogtrotter · 14/12/2018 10:04

"Integration is not working,"

Bollocks, in fact most immigrants from all areas integrate just fine.

Islam is never going to be the dominant culuture in Europe, that's a ridiculous point.

We will be the last to leave the EU, we are making it look so good.

The real issues are that of wealth/income distribution, but the right wing focus on immigration, and very ironically identity politics.

RoboticMary · 14/12/2018 10:33

Bollocks, in fact most immigrants from all areas integrate just fine.

If that is true, why were 23 people killed in the Manchester Arena bombing last year, young women and girls attending a pop concert? The man who perpetrated that act of violence was born in Manchester to a family of refugees fleeing to escape the government of Gaddafi. He was born and schooled in this country, went to university in this country, had every opportunity this country this country could give him - and what did we get in return for it?

A few bombings and terrorist attacks is apparently the price we have to pay, because most immigrants integrate? Some do. But a lot don’t. I’d rather not take the risk.

user1499173618 · 14/12/2018 10:38

He was born and schooled in this country, went to university in this country, had every opportunity this country this country could give him

The thing is - the educational opportunities afforded to immigrants do not insulate them from prejudice and from shut out of positions of power/influence/security.

RoboticMary · 14/12/2018 10:45

@user1499173618

So it’s our fault then? We’re supposed to hand over power and influence, or are individuals supposed to earn it, and merit it?

We don’t start from a position of predjudice in this country. We’re a tolerant society. But he’s not helped foster better relations by his actions.

longwayoff · 14/12/2018 11:06

Absolutely, robotic, it has a lot to do with people who think as you say you do. Many people do start from a position of prejudice as I'm sure you know. And are more than happy to express it and attempt to disseminate their views as extensively as possible. Then wring their hands as if they had nothing to do with it. I expect we all know someone like that.

RoboticMary · 14/12/2018 11:14

Absolutely, robotic, it has a lot to do with people who think as you say you do.

Could you explain what you mean please?

I’m a decent, kind, tolerant person. And I think the majority of British people are also. Having moved around Europe constantly throughout my childhood I’ve certainly encountered many less tolerant societies. But am I to infer from your comment that we somehow brought this upon ourselves? I refuse to take any responsibility for this man’s despicable actions.

ElonMask · 14/12/2018 11:19

I didn't say it would be the dominant culture in all of Europe, i said it was conceivable given how poor integration that it would become the dominant culture in some regions. I also wasn't talking about all immigrants I was specifically talking about Islam. Whilst in the EU we cannot control immigration from EU countries, and we certainly cannot control who they allow into their country.

Most Muslims do not share your western liberal values I cannot get my head around people who demonise western culture and bend over backwards to excuse a culture which patently disenfranchises women and discriminates against homosexuals and tolerates no criticism.

user1499173618 · 14/12/2018 11:49

We don’t start from a position of predjudice in this country. We’re a tolerant society.

Some people are open minded and other are not. Some immigrants fall on their feet and find a sense of belonging. Others don’t and it is not necessarily through want of trying or merit. I’m an immigrant in another EU country and boy have I encountered prejudice!

RoboticMary · 14/12/2018 11:53

I cannot get my head around people who demonise western culture and bend over backwards to excuse a culture which patently disenfranchises women and discriminates against homosexuals and tolerates no criticism.

I couldn’t agree more.

RoboticMary · 14/12/2018 12:09

user1499173618

I’ve also encountered that predjudice. As a young child at school in Spain I was subjected to constant sexually explicit verbal abuse from young male classmates. They thought British women had low morals and that I’d find it funny.

However, I certainly don’t judge all Spaniards by those young men, and their behaviour wouldn't have been an excuse for me to behave badly towards them. If the Manchester Arena bomber encountered predjudice and unkindness, then I am sorry for him, but there’s no excuse for bombing an arena full of people in cold blood. None.

user1499173618 · 14/12/2018 12:17

I’m not trying to excuse bloodshed. We obviously cannot do that. But we do need to try to understand the extreme exasperation of people whose heritage cultures are disparaged a d diminished and who are not given a compelling reason to embrace our own. They are in a no man’s land.

I volunteer one on one with highly intelligent and educated Syrian refugees. We spend a lot of time analyzing the uninformed cultural prejudices they encounter in what are often jobs many light years away from their skill sets.

RoboticMary · 14/12/2018 12:28

I think it’s part of a wider problem, that we cannot give them a compelling alternative, because we don’t have one anymore.

May I ask you - taking FGM as an example - knowing that this is a heritage cultural practice does not mean we can’t criticise it, surely? Some practices like that example are bad, and we can’t accept them in this country, and shouldn’t be ashamed to say that it must not happen in Britain.

user1499173618 · 14/12/2018 12:34

Personally, I think that FGM is a fairly straightforward, black and white example of where EU countries can and should draw the line. FGM is a practice that is clearly incompatible with the cire values of EU countries.

How about bilingualism? Should we encourage immigrants to hold onto their heritage languages as well as learning English?

user1499173618 · 14/12/2018 12:37

we cannot give them a compelling alternative, because we don’t have one anymore

I do not agree with this as stated. I do, however, think that there are plenty of schools, housing estates and even towns that are cultural wastelands and whose inhabitants have no access to a compelling culture. Blame town planners and neoliberal economic policies.

RoboticMary · 14/12/2018 12:47

EU countries can and should draw the line. FGM is a practice that is clearly incompatible with the cire values of EU countries.

I’m glad we agree on that.

As far as bilingualism is concerned, immigrants can certainly hold on to their heritage languages, but the language of England is English, and immigrants should be expected to learn it. It’s a good starting point for integration.

user1499173618 · 14/12/2018 12:51

You aren’t answering my question on bilingualism. Should we encourage immigrants to hold onto their heritage language?

RoboticMary · 14/12/2018 12:53

Certainly, if they so choose, but not at the expense of English in the public sphere.

user1499173618 · 14/12/2018 12:56

You see, I disagree with that. I think it absolutely crucial that people be encouraged to pass on their heritage language to their children and that children learn to read and write in their heritage language as well as in English. The loss of heritage identity and language greatly diminishes the person and generates huge frustration.

RoboticMary · 14/12/2018 13:10

I don’t think they should be encouraged as such, no. If they are living in England, then they should speak English on a day to day basis, in the public sphere, as I said. What could be wrong with that? If in England - English should be spoken. We have a wonderful language and and many wonderful authors and poets to be proud of who have fired people’s imaginations.

I have no isssue whatever with people learning to read and write their heritage language at home if they so wish.

I attended many different schools throughout my childhood (my Dad’s job kept us on the move). When I lived in Spain, I went to a Spanish-speaking school, and had to learn Spanish. Why should I not have been be expected to? Same when we lived on Denmark, and Russia. I had to learn French at a boarding school in Quebec. I didn’t expect anyone to accommodate me, and it certainly didn’t diminish me as a person. It might have generated frustration if I’d felt entitled and hard done by, but I didn’t. I was the outsider, it was my job to integrate as best I could. I could speak English at home, and read English books.

user1499173618 · 14/12/2018 13:16

I’m not saying people shoudn’t be expected or even compelled to learn English if they live in England. I think they should.

What worries me are the immigrants - or, more usually, their children, who have no proper grasp of their heritage language and culture OR English (or French or whatever) language and culture. They end up as a poor man’s version of TCKs and extremely frustrated at belonging nowhere of any interest.

BorisBogtrotter · 14/12/2018 13:22

FGM happens more in countries where Christianity is the major religion than Islam.

Using extreme examples, and ones where of course we can offer homegrown white christian examples too, isn't an accurate portrayal of why integration isn't working.

BorisBogtrotter · 14/12/2018 13:23

"I cannot get my head around people who demonise western culture and bend over backwards to excuse a culture which patently disenfranchises women and discriminates against homosexuals and tolerates no criticism"

Strawman fail, no one has done this here.

RoboticMary · 14/12/2018 13:25

Then surely the answer is to learn English as best you can, and in preference? Why be in England if you don’t wish to integrate, or even speak the language?

My MIL is Canadian. Her parents arrived in Canada speaking Russian, and spoke to her in Russian at home, but she never bothered teaching DH. It wasn’t of any use to him in Canada where French and English are the official languages. Everyone now speaks to one another in English - moreover, they’re proud to speak it and proud to be Canadian. Isn’t that what we want - people integrating and becoming part of the culture in which they now live?