To blame Have I Got News For You for the mess we’re currently in?

[BertrandRussell]

None of this would have happened if Johnston, Farage and Rees-Mogg hadn’t been invited on and been allowed to present themselves as “good sports”.

Most immigrants who arrive here do speak English, there are small pockets of people who don't.

Most immigrants integrate just fine, a small minority don't.

Some don’t really have the choice or time to learn before they get here.

However I have met people born on the uk who don't speak English and that just blows me away (not all kids who do catch up at school but adults).

This thread is a shameful example of why the education system needs an overhaul and why media needs to be regulated.

I know plenty of English people who live in Spain who don't speak Spanish.....

I know Bertrand, I lived among many of them, and I think it’s shameful.

It isn't a straw man though. What's being argued is that any objections to islamic practices and culture are down to misinformation and as per above books and articles critical of how Islamic immigrants have integrated should be banned or "regulated". You couldn't make it up.

Perhaps most do speak English, but a significant number do not and never learn it either. How can you integrate if you don't speak the language ? 22% of Muslim women in the UK never learn English. 39% think wives should always obey their husbands. Half of British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, not just that they don't agree with it, they think it should be illegal. Lets have more of these fine chaps, don't agree ? You're a bigot. But some Brits moved to Spain and didn't bother to learn Spanish so it's fine right ? Talk about head up arse.

It is a strawman because no one has made that argument here, you've created it in order to attempt to destroy the arguments of those who are contesting yours.

I actually don't see any articles or books that are critical of how SOME Islamic immigrants have intergrated have been banned or regulated, we have misnifnormation about these immigrants and critical articles in the press all the time, usually based on iognorance and prejudice.

For example, the slauhtgter method for Kosher food is the same as Halal, yet its Halal which draws the ire, and again, for an extremely small level of practice - 86% of Halal meat is stunned before killing.

22% of Muslim women statistic you quote is incorrect, it was from the 2011 census data and also included which said that 22%, said that they could speak English “not well” (152,000) or “not at all” (38,000). So that's 4.5% of all Muslim women say they don't speak English.

Your use of statistics is very misleading.

So your rebuttal is that you think "not well" means they actually speak it well enough to become full members of society ? Or are you suggesting the situation has improved markedly in the last 7 years ? That the statistic is wholly misleading ? What about the rest of it ? Is it prejudiced to say that it appears like the values of many Muslims who are already in the uk appear incompatible with our values ? Do you think newer immigrants will be better ? Perhaps you think that Muslims here might give up their faith ? Because that doesn't end well either.

"So your rebuttal is that you think "not well" means they actually speak it well enough to become full members of society "

No it was a rebuttal of your point because you said that 22% of women never bothered to learn English when they came to the UK, in fact it was 4.5%. But again you fail to accept nuance, those who do not speak it, or do not speak well are increidbly likely to be the older generation who arrived here as adults and have found it more difficult to learn. You also rant on about integration not working and attempted to use this to justify your point whilst ignoring the fact that the vast majority of the population speak English well ( 78%) and the huge majority speak it well or at least have some (95.9) which shows a huge attempt to integrate.

"not well" may be enough to engage in society, yes, how many UK nationals have very low literacy rates?

"Is it prejudiced to say that it appears like the values of many Muslims who are already in the uk appear incompatible with our values ? "

Yes because your are highlighting one group, there are many groups of a vast array of ethinicities including white British, who's values are incompatible with the standard set of "British values".

You make sweeping generalizations about "muslims" and integration, using statistics in a deliberately disingenuous way in attempt to prove your your point, and hold exceptions up as the norm.

It doesn't prove your point, at all, but does prove something else.

Right so your argument is the apparent coincidence of the views expressed and the religion of those doing the expressing is just that, a pure coincidence and because some white people are homophobic and misogynistic it doesnt matter ? And that 52% is an "exception". Whatever.

What has Islam got to do with Brexit?

I realise the thread has changed topic, but going back to the original point about HIGNFY and other comedy shows legitimising these dangerous hate figures as hilarious eccentrics - who here remembers claig? The MN resident ‘comedy lunatic’ poster that everyone would indulgently chuckle at as they posted about Trump etc? I found the ‘haha, it’s claig with their funny, crazy ideas’ attitude very worrying as when you looked beyond the affected oddities of claig’s posting, they were pushing extremely dangerous ideas but everyone thought they were harmless. Not quite so funny now if you look back!

who here remembers claig? The MN resident ‘comedy lunatic’ poster that everyone would indulge Me. They did predict Trump's victory.

That’s what I mean, derxa. It’s like the Johnson/Mogg etc on HIGNFY. Everyone thinks is funny until they start getting powerful and their deranged predictions/desires become reality!

Everyone thinks is funny until they start getting powerful and their deranged predictions/desires become reality! Yes but what I found funny was everyone frothing at her. She had no influence on my opinions.

I worry that claig normalised extreme views - and people didn’t froth, they chuckled. No one bothered to challenge him/her seriously. And those terrible, damaging ideas kept seeping out.

What has Islam got to do with Brexit?

The dangerous lie that was sold to the masses that continued EU membership would result in Muslims 'invading' the UK absolutely unchallenged, and Islamic law, culture and traditions being implemented whole-sale into the UK.

What this has brought to light is the sheer lack of knowledge of how the EU works as an institution and how global institutions work in tandem. People that somehow think the WTO is a panacea are going to be in for a shock.

If your quest to forbid any brown person from entering UK shores, you're going to be in for a shock. In return for FTA's what do you think the governments of India, China and others will ask for in return?

How do you think a deal struck with the EU will be any better than what we have now?

British exceptionalism and gradiosity has a lot to answer for. It didn't just start 2 years ago.

And when you're languishing with a weak currency and stockpiling Nurofen, I can guarantee you Rees-Mog won't be suffering the same plight.

I am not a fan of the EU. Frankly Juncker is a joke. But here we are.

And I say this as someone who has spent years working for the EU. I stopped reading the Brexit threads during the referendum because frankly it is impossible to oust a boogyman that's so entertained in people's minds. The UK government could not give a single shiny shit about services in certain regions of the UK which actually benefited from EU structural funds. Turkeys voting for Xmas all round. It will be nice to see a humbled UK return to the fold without it's imperialist ego getting in the way.

In return for FTA's what do you think the governments of India, China and others will ask for in return?

Have already asked for. India has been clear any trade deal will depend on increased immigration access.

All the E.European fruit pickers that Brexiters want to get rid of will be replaced by Indian and African pickers because British people don't want to do those jobs.

All of the major European powers suffer from what you call "exceptionalism". Macron himself said given a yes/no choice France would probably leave too. If the Greeks got a vote I'm sure they'd leave. Italy ?

I think Merkel's decision to let in a million Syrians was a mistake and it plays into the idea that if they all stay and become EU citizens then they can go where they want.

Other than that I'm not really sure why the EU gets the blame, but I think it embodies a large thing that does stuff people don't like and feel they have no say over.

I cannot get my head around people who demonise western culture and bend over backwards to excuse a culture which patently disenfranchises women and discriminates against homosexuals and tolerates no criticism.

I assume you mean christianity by this?

Similarly, FGM is a christian practice.

So your rebuttal is that you think "not well" means they actually speak it well enough to become full members of society
I don’t know. The society is nearly divided in the middle and we have found that, despite being an apparently civilised society, has failed to have a dialogue with its own people. You are nearly taking it out on immigrants because they are an easy target. Immigration won’t stop no matter what. Guess why? You don’t have enough skills to cover what these immigrants are needed for. End of.

No, M3lon if I had meant Christianity I would have said so. Your whataboutery is tiresome and ridiculous, are you suggesting that western societies engaged in fgm ? That because some Christians in Africa engage in this vile practise and there are more Christians that Muslims (barely) in Europe that we have no business judging islamic culture ? Wtf.

Santa

Funny then that Muslims (particularly the women) are far far more likely to be "economically inactive".

ElonMask what has Islam got to do with Brexit?