To blame Have I Got News For You for the mess we’re currently in?

[BertrandRussell]

None of this would have happened if Johnston, Farage and Rees-Mogg hadn’t been invited on and been allowed to present themselves as “good sports”.

Confusedbeetle - I'm certainly not blind to the the many faults of the EU and I would never describe myself as a fan of the institution but I also knew we would be vastly worse off out of it and the ONLY chance to improve it is on the inside. I wouldn't even mind having Corbyn as PM as long as we were in the EU where I would welcome his criticisms and impact upon Brussels.

I have said two or three times now M3lon if you bothered to read that I don't think voting to leave the EU was the right way to tackle the issues. I'm saying what the issues were and they were immigration.

Freedom of movement does present an issue though, you can hardly argue against that.

You are spectacularly ignorant in your figures however. You need to look at the long term, unless there is one or all of : a reformation in Islam, a check on Islamic immigration or a demographic reversal so that Muslims do not have a significantly higher birth rate then you can see where it might lead. You might not care which again is fine, but that doesn't mean the logic of the argument is wrong in and of itself. Try walking around one of these almost exclusively Muslim areas in "immodest" dress see how that goes for you. It's all very well saying well London seems fine etc.

Well because tower hamlets has the highest Muslim population by percentage in the UK.

I just said London as a whole. The whole city voted to Remain bar two boroughs.

Love how the EU vote has boiled down to Islamic immigration.

Showing the xenophobia of the leave voting crowd to a tee.

You know its fucking funny that you lot repeatedly show yourselves up?

IKR.

I do agree that these celeb politicians have been given more than their fair share of air time more time to sell their point of view and very good they have been at it

They add viewing numbers Farage is loved and loathed and both sides are drawn I watching him like a pantomime baddy

The BBC must be kicking themselves they also gave their last few minutes of the referendum debate to Boris and what a predictably great speech he gave (though I disagreed with what he was saying)

I wouldn't even mind having Corbyn as PM as long as we were in the EU where I would welcome his criticisms and impact upon Brussels.

LOL, if you think Corbyn would have any impact upon Brussels

As for knowing we would be vastly worse off out of it, maybe your intellect was missing from all the reports that have been done by various bodies that say the worst case scenario is a reduction in YOY growth by 0.5%?

As someone else put it, there is a lot of misinformed shit being thrown around by all sides, considering people claim to understand nuance of language and still spout out headlines is ironic coming from the better educated than you because I voted differently posters

hmm...the majority of muslim immigrants in Germany don't have citizenship though. So freedom of movement not the issue there....

As for the 'oh no - they reproduce as well' argument...even the predictions that factor in the largest numbers for both migration and reproduction suggest we might get to 10% by 2050 (when global warming will actually be the only thing anyone cares about anymore), that's the equivalent of the lib dems plus the greens in vote share in the 2017 election - and we can all see how important they are in determining the countries future at the moment....

Justanotherlurker - it seems like people have some amnesia about the referendum. There was plenty of information available showing that we would be far worse off and that the process of leaving the EU would be far harder than the Leave campaign admitted/or even knew. I have family members in NI and the Irish border issue was a known big worry at that time yet mostly ignored by the referendum campaigners.

Besides, I'm a pessimist so my opinion on everything is usually negative and guess what? I'm usually right!

M3lon

Wrong. The figures are that with zero migration the UK will have 9% Muslim poor by 2050, high estimate is 17.2%.

*population not poor.

Nor can Muslim immigrants just magically acquire EU citizenship - they need to be resident for several years and sit reasonably challenging citizenship tests, including language skills.

If Facts aren't important, then don't pretend to quote them.
Onto narrative... I suppose I feel pretty powerless.
American president: I didn't vote for (I voted for the gal)
UK govt I didn't vote for (voted for another party)
Brexit: I voted Remain
It appears my vote doesn't count.
Nobody represents me.
I live in a dull market town, btw. And we DO have some savings.

Somehow this position makes me one of the "rich aggressive Metropolitan elite". Who knew?

So back to blame... maybe the day people decided that narrative mattered far more than facts: that is what we should blame.

Celts, Romans, Angles, Danes, Vikings, Normans, Huguenots, Jews, Africans, Indians all these and more have made this country's population over the last thousand years and more. Our English language is a mixture of Anglo Saxon, French, German, Latin and random bits and pieces. Our mathematical systems, science, chemistry and our knowledge of Ancient learning? We looted the knowledge from Byzantium. So give it a rest people. We are mongrels all.

lljkk

You've lost me ? Are you saying that the facts are wrong ? Which ones ? I provided a link earlier on.

You presumably have dual citizenship and are doing all right, so you have an interest in conserving the status quo. What effect this will have on the country in 70 odd years and more is maybe not your concern, perhaps all the old codgers should be given some credit for being able to imagine the long term consequences of a particular course.

Ha! I am one of the old farts!

You said European "countries" (plural) would have Muslim population > 30%.
Sweden was the only example you could find and only under an extreme scenario of how future might happen.
So not countries . But one country. Only In a very unlikely scenario.
Yes I think accuracy & credibility should matter.

Doing alright: sure, I'll own that. We aren't worried about paying the rent. And I'm willing to work sorting potatoes if that's the only job going. I thought working class Brits were conservative with small c, too, but maybe that's no longer true and they actively prefer uncertainty, instability, declining prosperity. Like I said above, each and every person who voted Leave should own this mess as something they co-created.

Yeah, but the clocks don't stop on January 1st 2050, the point is unless something changes its only going in one direction. Do you find that lacks credibility ? Why ?

There was plenty of information available showing that we would be far worse off

Change was always going to involve a bit of hardship.

The Remain case was "it'll stay the same".

Woo.

Lots of people weren't happy with being part of the EU so got off their arses & voted to that effect, knowing full well that it was going to be a slog, but in the long run it'd be worth it.

How long do you expect that run to be Magnificent?

I only ask because I might be in a retirement home by then. That's assuming there is retirement or homes to go to under the brave new Singapore-style low tax paradise that billionaires like James Dyson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and that bloke who runs Wetherspoons push.

That's why as a 50-something on a modest income that I really don't think is going to get much better I selfishly voted Remain and I have no patriotic desire to get behind a push for Brexit.

Just some quotes from online:

Gregory Campbell, the DUP MP for East Londonderry, concedes the negotiation is “more slow and more complicated than we thought”.

John Redwood: "I have often said that Brexit could be easy”

Liam Fox: [uk-eu] “one of the easiest [trade deals] in human history”
&
[We will have] 40 trade deals ready to sign “the second” after Brexit in March 2019.

David Davis:
May 2016: "The hard-headed, pragmatic businessmen on the continent will do everything to ensure that trade with Britain continues uninterrupted." (but)
Sept 2016: “It may be the most complicated negotiation of all time."

Farage: "We could do a deal with America in 48 hours"... ""The people of Norway (and) Switzerland ... are happy,...Those countries have their own deals, to maintain the type of trading relationship they want.""

Johnson: post-Brexit UK will “still have access to the single market”, plus “intense and intensifying” cooperation with Europe.

Gove The UK would still be able to trade freely within Europe even if it left the EU and was not part of the single market

Raab: “I hadn’t quite understood the full extent of this, but if you look at the UK and look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing."

I dunno... it just seems like those campaigners sure didn't expect this much slog.

My parents are both well educated middle class tories ( although they both voted for Blair because they couldn't stand Major)

Their local MP is from a similar background. A GP. And like my parents from the Home counties, moved down to a small community in the south west.

My parents were torn on Brexit. I am a remainee but this is from a selfish point of view as I live in the EU and Brexit has made bureaucracy worse than it already was so I was being selfish and attributed my Brexit opinion to my individual circumstances.

My parent's MP changed her mind and her stance on Brexit. I think this is bad as there are individuals who don't understand the outcomes and who might look to an MP for guidance. This woman was made a poster girl at the time for people who couldn't decide.

That's my problem with Brexit. A lot of people didn't have a clue what they were voting for and in some cases not much help making a valid decision.

@LittleAlbatross, if you ever stand for office, I'd vote for you. Well said.

"Our trade relations with the rest of the world remain unchanged" (Lord Lawson, 29 February 2016): another one predicting an easy ride.

Brexiters (2016) different visions of what is Brexit.

Stephen Phillips MP, who voted Leave but then resigned in 2016 b/c he wanted to stay in SM.

(even though "all Leavers knew what they were voting for & getting")

None of this would have happened if the UK weren't full of a load of thick, ignorant oiks

Bertrand, I’m not sure if you’re coming back to this thread you started, but if so what are your views on the above sentence?
Iirc you are usually pretty quick to pull people up on words like ‘chav’ or ‘oik’ but maybe such words are ok if referring to leave voters.

None of this would have happened if the UK weren't full of a load of thick, ignorant oiks

And this is exactly why Remainers were so surprised at the polls. They’re too busy making sweeping, moralising judgments to listen to the real concerns of Leavers. If you’re that antagonistic, there’s no point in debating or discussing anything with you - we just make our voice heard at the ballot box. And you’ll remain in a bubble of self-inflicted ignorance, whining that it didn’t go your way.

“listen to the real concerns of Leavers“

I have been asking leavers to tell me their real concerns for 2 years- none of them ever have. It’s very odd.