A United Ireland

[poppiesallykatie]

Not a goady thread or to stir, but how many are against it or for it? Obviously many in NI want to part of the Republic, many in NI want to part of Great Britain, how do the British people feel about it?

Lol - that was you auntie Patricia who raised the comparison of €425k for a house two hours from Dublin. My point is not all houses two hours from Dublin are that price. Some are - some aren’t. That’s my point. I am not - and have never - compared them to Dublin And Belfast.

Dublin has expensive housing. More expensive than Belfast. Less expensive than London. Prob comparable to smaller UK cities.

Think I’ve made that as simple and as clear as can be.

@weeBean. yours is a very personal post and I can see your opposition. But reading the whole thread and taking on board references to Scotland, NI is consistently let down and underfunded in the position it is in now. The question is answered at this point, very few British people have come on this thread with a passionate need or want to retain Northern Ireland. The only posters who make direct or passionate or thought out points are those from the Republic or those who live in Northern Ireland. I did think I phrased the question poorly, but actually if you sit and read the whole thread, it is quite obvious. Just a comment on the poster @xenia. An upperclass troll. Every thread relating to Irish. affairs, eagerly commented on, without a clue. God forbid the hoi polloi dare to look at the stars. You can't argue a point with stupid.

I'm irish born & bred in the republic. Old enough to remember the troubles.

There is a program on Irish TV called "reeling in the years " which shows news clips from major events for a particular year. Watched one's from 1983 & 1993 in the last week. It was frightening to remember the levels of violence - from both sides .

I think a hard brexit & a hard border will lead us back towards those dark days. The dissents on both sides are still arround

Do I think a United Ireland will happen, my heart would love to see it happen a final end to over 800 years of British rule on our island . BUT, my head says it's an awful idea financially for the country - 30% of the people employed in the public sector & masses amounts of money bumped in from the uk exchequer- eh no thanks .

I’m from the Republic and think how little NI was thought of in the original thoughts of Brexit is shocking. And reflects a complete apathy of the rest of Britain to it. The fact that there is little it no interest from anyone outside of The Republic or NI on this thread says a lot too.

I think the idea of NI being independent is unrealistic. 30% of the workforce is public service? So they’re a cost to the rest of the employed people to support. I know they are needed but that’s an enormous bill for the taxpayers to pay. It’s statistics like that which would make me vote no to reunification.

Our health services are incompatible. I realize the British are proud of their NHS but actually it’s not the way I would like to see our health service develop.

Recently all children under six got medical cards in Ireland. Entitling them to free doctors. I work with this age group. Parents bring them to the doc for every thing. Colds. Once off mild temps. Teething. These parents freely admit that they are doing it just to check and would not bring the child if they had to pay. The result is long delays for everyone at the doctor. Appointments are difficult to get within a few days. It used to be I could get an appointment for the next day for my doc. Now it’s a few days. I see posts on here referring to waiting weeks on NHS doctors appointments in Britain. I truly believe that’s because it’s free. I believe in the medical card system. Where the entitlement to one is means tested and based on circumstance. I think the long term illness card is appropriate too. The only group I feel should be be just given one automically is the pensioners as they have paid into the system and are likely to need medical care frequently.

I think our health service needs a major overhaul as it is run badly and has too many non medic employees. But I don’t think the NHS is the model to copy.

As for education - Ireland has a great education system. It has its faults and I’m not a fan of the points race for university. I think we should look to how some other European countries handles these transitions My conversations with UK people doesn’t inspire me to copy the education system. I’m an early years educator myself and I would like the age of starting formal education to be closer to what some of the Scandinavian countries consider appropriate and not what Britain does.

All of these are huge differences in culture between Ireland and NI and reflect a growing divide between the two cultures.

I see Ireland as progressive and determined to keep that progression going. I see NI as stuck in the politics of old. I know there are people who say that’s the DUP and Sinn Fein but that’s who is voted in. The population are just not as motivated to change and progress in the same way it seems to me. That’s fine if that’s the majority choice. But Ireland has enough work to do in my opinion to keep our own progression going without dragging a reluctant and unmotivated NI with us.

Why are people so horrified about the lack of interest in NI from the British general public (despite the many references to the English here)? Most have never been there, don't know anyone from there, nor have any reason to visit. Aside from those with personal connections to NI, only older people or those involved with sectarian football teams etc. have any reason to particularly think about why NI is part of the UK or why the UK exists in the first place. It just is, like Wales, England and Scotland.

I see lots of criticism on here that British people are not taught more of this in school - to be honest it came up twice on my syllabus at school, once in history and once in politics, and it was just a really dry and boring topic that you wanted to skip through as quickly as possible, like many other things such as the creation of the NHS, etc..... all important and interesting to me now but really bloody dull and of zero interest at school.

So the fact that the Tory party's current reliance on the DUP and the backstop has made more people aware of the situation has both negative and positive aspects to it. It is raising awareness but also negativity.

Must be pretty rough for people in NI to hear apathy and rejection from both Britain and the ROI but there are plenty of places with comparable or bigger populations who feel they could just disappear and no one would care or notice - both in the UK and plenty of other countries in Europe.

Also, why compare the gay marriage/abortion referenda to the Brexit one? Completely different scenario, based on unknowables and certainly not a clearcut "progressive" v "non-progressive" vote. Some of those with the highest so-called "progressive" credentials voted Leave. It was never, ever going to run as smoothly or produce a clear cut result, even if they had actually put some decent effort into it. It shouldn't have been run in the first place, which is not something you would say about many other referendum questions.

Inkspellme, I think I replied without as much thought and clarity as I intended. And slightly rudely, sorry. But I think you understand what I meant now and I know what you’re saying too. I was just trying to point out that even 2 hours from the city, middle of nowhere, there are many locations that cost way more than great locations and fab homes minutes from Belfast. Not even to start comparing to Dublin.

Mirialis, to be honest if you had actually been properly taught about NI history you’d realise it’s absolutely fascinating and unbelievable. One of the most shocking histories right on your doorstep and part of your own country. So that a pity they didn’t teach it properly and you couldn’t understand what you were missing. Maybe at some point in life or with the publishing of some of the real details, you will get a renewed interest in NI history.

No Auntie, please read what I actually said. All very interesting now but really bloody dull at school and not surprising that it was a lot more interesting to school kids in NI/ROI than in Britain. And as the people from ROI keep saying on here - people have moved on; if ROI people are allowed to do so without reproach, so should British people. It wasn't us who had any personal involvement or voted for the British government at time after all. If ROI people are telling NI it needs to get out of the old politics and move beyond the SF/DUP split, it's hardly surprising that British people don't get it and are wondering why it is tolerable to have a part of the UK still preventing gay marriage and abortion.

It wasn't us who had any personal involvement or voted for the British government at time after all.

That's a valid point and I think it's worth mentioning that the unionist population of N Ireland are very much maligned by those in the rest of the UK as being backwards, an embarrassment etc but it wasn't actually anyone alive now who settled in that part of Ireland, they were all born here. It is hard for people to feel unwanted. Unwanted by Ireland and unwanted by the rest of the UK. And unable to survive independently.

I don't think NI is actively "unwanted" by the rest of the UK, though - I think it is more "wanted" by the UK then it is by the ROI and for as long as the majority want to be in the UK, it is very welcome but will have to put up with what Londoners, Scots, etc. put up with which is massive grumblings about money being spent there and "wah wah it's not fair". Plus be seen as backward/a bit mad with the DUP etc. but, again, unpleasant stereotypes are also happily and openly bandied around about, say, Londoners and Scots (other examples exist too of course).

I think, however, if there were talks of unified Ireland referenda and there was an indication that 50%+ of NI would want that (putting what the ROI wants to one side for the moment), you would immediately start to hear "good riddance" etc. etc. from the sort of people who say "wish we had a vote in the Scottish referendum" but it's largely bluster from a lot of people - "fine, if you don't want us then we don't want you and we'll have our ball back please" sort of childishness.

That said, I think to most British people it would ultimately "make sense" for there to be a unified Ireland, whereas a loss of the Welsh, English, Scottish union would be felt much more keenly.

I've no doubt it is hard to feel unwanted by the two nations you should feel attached too, but where do you think "Fuck you then" English nationalism has started to spring up from amongst certain demographics... it's from EVERYONE feeling that it is A OK in 2018 to publicly hate the English, a situation which is rapidly becoming a vicious circle.

will have to put up with what Londoners, Scots, etc. put up with which is massive grumblings about money being spent there and "wah wah it's not fair". Plus be seen as backward/a bit mad with the DUP etc. but, again, unpleasant stereotypes are also happily and openly bandied around about, say, Londoners and Scots.

You bandy about nasty stereotypes about the rest of the UK then whinge about stereotypes.

what do you mean "the rest of the UK"???

It is the WHOLE of the UK who do that, Londoners and Scots included!!!

And where did I complain?

I'm wondering if there are countries where that doesn't happen in fact.

It wasn't us who had any personal involvement or voted for the British government at time after all.

This. Exactly. And it’s something else where hypocrisy comes into play. If anybody suggest that modern Germans are to blame for Nazism, Russians for Stalinism, Turks for the Ottomans or Jews for killing Jesus etc, etc and suggested their current populations deserved to be punished for it - well people would be horrified by it.

But the British are supposed to accept we’re born with some sort of original sin which means we deserve to be punished in perpetuity for things that happened before we were even born.

Don’t be disingenuous. Saying Scots and Londoners have to put up with grumbling about money then putting a nasty impression in is complaining.

I would love NI to remain part of the U.K. Same as I voted for Scotland to remain too. I like our mixed nations and whilst I do wish the smaller countries were treated a little better, I think there are many areas of England that suffer from the same problems.

That said, it is absolutely up to them to make the decision and I’d support whatever decision they made. I can see both sides of their argument, it would just be wonderful if the decision could be made purely on economic and cultural grounds without there being any fear of trouble. Sadly I don’t see how that can happen.

But the British are supposed to accept we’re born with some sort of original sin which means we deserve to be punished in perpetuity for things that happened before we were even born.

Maybe it's because unlike the Germans, etc, the British have done very little to address those sins ? In fact, it's probably fair to say they have not only continued them, but intensified them ?

Obviously not individual British people. But the governments they insist on electing.

@Augusta2012 - But the British are supposed to accept we’re born with some sort of original sin which means we deserve to be punished in perpetuity for things that happened before we were even born.

Do you not realise how recently British collusion with loyalist paramilitaries occurred? What about allowing sectarian marches to take place in nationalist areas? What about the bonfires that take place annually where effigies of politicians from the "other side" and of the pope are burnt?

Very little of that took place before any of you were born.

All very interesting now but really bloody dull at school and not surprising that it was a lot more interesting to school kids in NI/ROI than in Britain.

Rubbish. I’m not from there but find the history fascinating, especially the British Government involvement. Far more interesting than the War of the Roses or Battle of Hastings. That you found it dull says more about you than the history.

^^ This (DGRossetti's point). The Germans, to take an example, have (for the most part) extensively, thoroughly and humbly addressed their country's past. A lot of british (particularly English) attitudes - exemplarily on display around Brexit - do seem carried by a form of colonial hubris. I say this as an English person who - to address a point upthread - is interested in NI. Good post by treaclesoda on what it must be like to feel unwanted everywhere.

Yabbers - we've covered this. Please go back and read my post where I said it was all very interesting to me now rather than selectively quoting what I had said about the lessons in school and using the tedious and ridiculous "says more about you" bollocks.

We learnt PLENTY about the British empire and how evil the British government and aristocracy were all around the world as well as to poor people in Britain. It was a really small part of a huge picture and involved a lot of cold learning about acts and politics and the like and was no way going to be done in the detail and with the emotion it will have been done with in Ireland because of that bigger picture.

Right Rosseti - in order to get rid of our original sin, who should we be electing as a government?

People say why aren't more English on these threads. I don't think we feel very welcomed on them and the idea we today, English people today, are somehow personally responsible for Irish issues is surely hard to justify. We have no more agency in these affairs than on most other issues Governments decide over.

I voted Remain. All my ancestors were poor including those coming out of Ireland both before and after the great famine. Nothing this famliy has done has had any impact on Ireland and its peoples today.

We have no more agency in these affairs than on most other issues Governments decide over.

Is that an excuse or justification ?

Rossetti, you have criticised us for the governments we keep electing so tell the British, who should they be voting for to make thing better for NI?

Don’t be disingenuous. Saying Scots and Londoners have to put up with grumbling about money then putting a nasty impression in is complaining

No it's not. It is stating a fact that those parts of the country who receive the biggest amounts from government (e.g NI, Wales, Scotland, London) are always going to have to put up with grumbling about it + stereotypes about people from other parts of the country and this exists in every country and is just a fact of central government and human society rather than a complaint - NI is no exception to this and will come in for it hardest as the place where the most central money is sent so that shouldn't be taken as "we're unwanted" any more than other places who come in for such whinging.