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AIBU?

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Original poster

To not care whether people say sex or gender.

999 replies

TeeJay1970 · 11/12/2018 21:48

Many people and organisations use these words interchangerbly. The meaning is always clear. I actually don't give a stuff if others disagree.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 11:27

And they are leveraging women's gender roles (female socialisation) in order to do it.

This is what the comment about Stockholm Syndrome referred to, that you said you disagreed with and I asked you to explain why, Weetabix.

jellyfrizz · 15/12/2018 11:28

These physical differences are now no longer important in developed countries.

Except for the 50 odd thousand women that lose their jobs each year because maternity : www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/money/2015/jul/24/maternity-leave-discrimination-54000-women-lose-jobs-each-year-ehrc-report

And perhaps you don’t consider sports important but many do.

Those physical differences still matter.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 11:29

Exactly.

jellyfrizz · 15/12/2018 11:30

Re. women losing their jobs that’s just in Britain.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/12/2018 11:33

No one is denying that weetabix.

Well yes they were about 20 pages ago, hence this level on inquisition aimed at me.

I say something and immediately everyone piles on.

Then one of you comes on and says exactly what I've been saying and is rewarded with rounds of hear hear.

It doesn't matter what I say you all immediately disagree, even when what I say is exactly the same as what you are all saying.

Pages back I was called "love". I called this as a misogynistic put down only to get posters saying that I deserved it.

If anyone else had been called "love" you would all have been outraged at the oppression.

Double standards.

You aren't for women's rights.

You are for the rights of your own gang.

Only women acceptable to you can be included in that gang. You are no different to those that you despise so much.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 11:44

It doesn't matter what I say you all immediately disagree, even when what I say is exactly the same as what you are all saying.

You haven't said the same thing at all. You're not coming at it from a feminist analysis. You said that sex based oppression wasn't about sex. It clearly is. What Datun said is that feminists support the removal of sex based oppression on the grounds of sex role stereotypes and social expectations of women, not that biological sex doesn't matter at all in terms of women's existing oppression which you appear to think, and which has been refuted by other posters.

starcrossedseahorse · 15/12/2018 11:45

By 'only women acceptable to you' do you mean the ones without penises? Real women like?

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 11:45

Men exploit women's reproductive and sexual labour, and the means by which they do it is gender roles, enforced by greater strength.

RatRolyPoly · 15/12/2018 11:47

What I am saying is that it is society's view of being female that is the problem, not the biological reality of being female.

Completely agree, it's GENDER that's the problem, and gender and sex have historically been interlinked.

So, the question of what women have in common with transwomen that we don't have in common with men, still remains unanswered?

Actually I answered that question repeatedly pages back. Does nobody read the thread these days?

Both natal and trans women are judged against standards of femininity. Men and trans men are judges against cultural standards of masculinity.

Trans women are judged as being not "womanly" enough, socially obligated to be more stereotypically "female" with reprisals for non-compliance, mocked or seen as defective for any deviation from the cultural standard, all in the she way as natal women.

And yet they are not held up against the standard of femininity because of what's in their pants, it's because of what they SAY they are; women. It's because of their GENDER, not their sex, and that is what we have in common with them that we do not share with men.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 11:47

Pages back I was called "love". I called this as a misogynistic put down only to get posters saying that I deserved it.

I've called plenty of men "love" in the same way online, actually. As a pp pointed out, it just means that I think your arguments are foolish.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 11:49

Actually I answered that question repeatedly pages back. Does nobody read the thread these days?

And people pointed out that your "answer" was unsatisfactory. You can't just say any old nonsense and say "well, I answered it, so nerr!"

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 11:51

Trans women are judged as being not "womanly" enough, socially obligated to be more stereotypically "female" with reprisals for non-compliance, mocked or seen as defective for any deviation from the cultural standard, all in the she way as natal women.

Why would a male person be judged as "not womanly enough"? Hmm there's definitely a reason, it's on the tip of my tongue..

RatRolyPoly · 15/12/2018 11:51

And people pointed out that your "answer" was unsatisfactory

No they didn't, not one single person commented that it was in any way lacking. Read it again. It isn't lacking.

You lot just changed the subject. Repeatedly.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 11:52

They're not judged in the same way for their appearance as women because women have not asked to be judged as something they are not.

RatRolyPoly · 15/12/2018 11:53

Why would a male person be judged as "not womanly enough"? Hmm there's definitely a reason, it's on the tip of my tongue..

Oh, so they DO have it common, regardless of the reasons? Finally, I think we're getting somewhere.

We DO have something in common with trans women that we don't share with men.

Do we all agree on that now, then?

GlitterStick · 15/12/2018 11:53

Your answer was unsatisfactory Grin
there you go, it has to be the "right" answer for some otherwise don't give a fig what's being said.
Least that raised my first genuine smile in otherwise shitty day so at least it's good for that.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 11:53

No they didn't, not one single person commented that it was in any way lacking. Read it again. It isn't lacking.

It is severely lacking and I know I personally pointed it out, for one thing. Read back.

GlitterStick · 15/12/2018 11:55

"You lot just changed the subject repeatedly"

Yep!

RatRolyPoly · 15/12/2018 11:55

No you didn't Eresh, you just made passing content as to WHY trans women might be subject to the same thing as natal women, as if the "why" somehow invalidates the fact that the result is the same.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 11:55

Do we all agree on that now, then?

No.

Because not all MTFs make the choice to present themselves in what they imagine is a female appearing way.

So it clearly doesn't apply to MTFs as a subclass of male people.

RatRolyPoly · 15/12/2018 11:56

I kept trying to wave it in front of their noses Glitter but apparently noone ever answers this stuff.

jellyfrizz · 15/12/2018 11:58

Completely agree, it's GENDER that's the problem

I think this is something we can all agree on which is why it is so important not to conflate it with sex.

GlitterStick · 15/12/2018 11:58

It's now like that vicar of Dibley character, remember him? Jim I think?
"No no no no yes no"

lol

We have in common but no we don't
alrighty then Confused

RatRolyPoly · 15/12/2018 11:58

Because not all MTFs make the choice to present themselves in what they imagine is a female appearing way.

And they're judged for it! In the same way that a woman would be, because they wouldn't be judged for "looking like a man" if they were one.