To think Scotland should be allowed to leave the UK and remain in the EU

[nickiredcar]

New poll says that most Scots think they would be better off leaving the UK after brexit. It's time they had another vote right?

If Scotland left the UK we would have to discuss how to split up the assets. Scotland doesn't just get to take what it wants in a divorce

It's interesting that this keeps being brushed aside. While Scotland could get the lion's share of the much-touted oil it's by no means guaranteed, and there are so many other assets/liabilities to balance up, not all of which would favour Scotland

Let's not forget that it was largely Scotland's need for a bailout which led to the 1707 Union in the first place, after the collapse of the Darien Scheme and failed harvests (which, naturally, was also blamed on the English)

No doubt, if Scotland gets its independence and runs out of money, the rUK will be expected to bail them out once again ... and no doubt too it will all be someone else's fault

Puzzled, you are being quite derogatory here. No doubt this and no doubt that. I have plenty of doubts about your statements.

"Naturally, was also blamed on the English". Why was it blamed on the English? How was it blamed on the English? I am eager to hear your reason for that statement. Perhaps it might explain why, if anyone, blamed anything on anyone. Was there a reason for blame being apportioned, if it was?

Just wondering if Scotland gets its independence and runs out of money, why you believe we would ask or expect rUK to 'bail us out'? I don't believe for one second rUK would have the money to bail anyone out. Particularly not post Brexit.

If Scotland wants to jtfo then they should

Joining the eu isn't going to be their decision to make though

Nyx I'm sorry you found it derogatory; I was relying more on historical records, which admittedly don't show Scotland in a very good light on this particular issue

There's a useful link here dealing with the blame game around Darien and the real reasons for its failure: www.scotsman.com/news/uk/ship-of-fools-sank-darien-scheme-1-1415836

I do agree that rUK could face challenges bailing anyone out after the mess of Brexit, but on the question of expecting subsidies I'd refer back to my post at 11.25, dealing with the myth of oil making Scotland a net contributor over the last couple of decades

"which, naturally, was also blamed on the English"

Despite poor planning and disease being factors in the failure of the Darien scheme, I don't think England is entirely blameless in the matter considering the trade blockade they put in place, as well as the agreement made between the East India Company and the English government to try and make the scheme fail.

A bit of reading perhaps might be recommended on the circumstances around the Act of Union, such as the Alien Act and other such measures enacted by the English parliament in order to push forward with the union.

Depressing to see the amount of anti-Scottish sentiment on yet another Mumsnet thread. Anyway, Scotland had a net trading surplus and could not run out of money; quite the opposite it would accumulate huge reserves of foreign currency very quickly. A different question is the budget deficit. UK is of course running a huge deficit, and Scotland's proportion of that (as decided by politicized London statisticians) currently, it is true, happens to appear larger than its share of population. However, big picture, even by these dodgy stats England had been draining Scotland of billions every year between the 1970s and 2010s. But temporary budget deficits mean nothing, even when they actually exist. Scotland is one of the richest country in the world, and no-one would be talking about money as an obstacle if it weren't for the fact that almost the entire 'Scottish' media is in fact controlled outside Scotland, mainly in England.

Typical of imperial powers around the world is to plunder its victims of wealth and then present the pennies it sends back to supplement its pillaged tax base as beneficence to the ungrateful savages who aren't civilized enough to realize how wonderful the metropolitan imperialist power is. Then the same said savages are accused of being crazy for blaming the imperial power for its woes, what crazy people they must be! Scotland just needs to get out of this abusive gaslighting relationship and be a normal country that has its own government and media, and takes responsibility for itself, like Norway and Ireland, two of the poorest countries in Europe before they cut themselves off from the 'beneficent subsidies' of their imperial master betters. Do that, stop outsourcing democracy to a bunch of ignorant Daily Mail reading nationalists, who call us beggars and drag us out of the EU for some blue passports. We need to start taking responsibility for ourselves like adults.

You've a budget deficit bigger then greeces. Scotland alone has a budget deficit above 9 percent, 2 percent higher then greeces. Greece has had to enact extreme austerity measures. With such a big deficit how may i ask are you such a rich country?

Also i haven't seen any anti scottish sentiment, i have seen something i like to call realsim. Scotland will be worse off out of the UK.

Yes the UK will trade with you, but will they be on the same terms?allow you the same free access to the UK market?

@Tiscold 'You've a budget deficit bigger then greeces'

Interesting comment, particularly as Greece has a budget surplus! Also, Scotland isn't an independent country, the UK is, and the UK officially has the SECOND LARGEST BUDGET DEFICIT in THE WORLD. Did you get that Tiscold? Give it a minute to sink in, then given your own logic please explain to me why England/the UK should exist and shouldn't be subjugated to China or Japan or Germany, three countries with the biggest surpluses.

As a proportion of GDP theScottishdeficit was more than three times that of theUKas a whole.

The deficit in Scotland was 8% including the North Sea, and excluding it was 9%. This compares to a deficit of 2.3% for the UK as a whole.

Excluding revenue and spending from the North Sea the Scottish deficit has been larger than the UK’s as a proportion of GDP for at least the last 20 years. Including the North Sea the UK and Scottish deficits were last at the same level (7.1%) in 2011/12, but since then the UK deficit has become smaller, while the Scottish deficit has stayed broadly the same.

So there you go. The uk has a higher monetary deficit but in terms of gdp scotlands is massive. So there you go let it sink in. If you leave in terms of gdp your deficit will be above 9 percent

the UK officially has the SECOND LARGEST BUDGET DEFICIT in THE WORLD

Nope ...

www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Economy/Budget-surplus/%2B-or-deficit/--

@ronatheseal. Seems you've the interesting comments not me

Yep:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_current_account_balance

And thus on your logic (not mine) England/UK is clearly a basket case that needs immediate subjection to its German betters!

@Tiscold Scotland doesn't have a budget deficit. You are confusing that with GERS, which mostly represents Scotland's population share of the UK's deficit.

But typical English nationalists really, obsessed with budget deficits when it comes to Scotchlandshire, turn a blank to it when it comes to their own greatest and glorious land. Different rules apply then naturally. But hey, as I've already said, temporary budget deficits mean nothing. England/the UK may have the second highest deficit in the world, but it is also very rich and I am sure it can be continue to be independent of Germany.

Ooh wikipedia a trusted source

Again yes the uk has a deficit but compared to percent gdp deficit ours is tiny compared to scotlands.

As a whole the uk deficit is 2.3 percent or around that, scotlands was above 9 percent of gdp. And yes that figure matters.

Ironically one sode of my family is scottish, doesnt stop me commenting on what a shithole it will turn into if it leaves the uk

@Tiscold Wikipedia is usually a reliable source actually. and in any case it is just representing information cited elsehwhere. Do you dispute the information in that link?

Again, Scotland does not have a deficit. GERS does not and cannot represent a deficit of an independent Scotland. And IF a deficit means a country cannot be independent, then England/UK is an economic basket case that needs to immediately submit to superior German rule!

Or if not Germany, perhaps China would be preferred? You can enjoy some time being told the English are a beggar nation by The English People's Daily and CCTV: England while all the wealth of your financial and technological sectors are sent to boost the tax base of the Beijing area.

Just because you've a deficit doesn't mean you can't be independent no but the higher the deficit is isn't good.

And no wikipedia isn't a reliable source at all, it can be adjusted and added to by anybody and it's laughable to suggest it's. Try including wikipedia in any academic piece of work and you would be laughed out.

Some of the references including may contain reliable information but because the content creator has chosen pieces from a range of sources and then possibly changed the info or interpreted it it makes it unreliable. And anyone being able to change a source therefore makes it unreliable.

Medical research papers don't allow people to randomly change and add info without proving their own knowledge and expertise on the subject

Scotland shows that for 2017-18 overall state spending hit £73.4bn compared to tax income of just under £60bn, including oil revenues. That left a deficit for the year of £13.4bn,

@Tiscold Answer the question, do you dispute the information. Either yes or no, if you do dispute it, I will post identical information from elsewhere. Your opinions on Wikipedia are neither relevant nor well-informed, but since you have posted these comments I feel I need to refute them. Wikipedia is not a place for primary research, but no the ability of 'anyone' to edit it does not make it unreliable. It makes it easier for people who know nothing about it to believe it is unreliable, but wrongly. Respectable and peer reviewed research has demonstrated that it is more reliable than other comparable sources of secondary information like Encyclopedia Brittanica and newspapers. While anyone can indeed edit it, it is very difficult to keep inaccurate information in a Wikipedia article for any length of time unless the topic is very obscure. If you don't believe, go ahead and try it.

@Tiscold The Scottish government's budget is about £40 billion, not £73. You are referring to an estimate of Scotland's population share of UK spending done by the UK government, including on govt debt.

Again yes wikipedia is an unreliable source no matter what you say. Anyone can edit it, you could edit, i could edit it, even a 6 year old could. Regardless of how long the wrong info is on there, it still means it's an unreliable source.

And go on publish another source then. I got ky info from the government of scotland stating they have a deficit of 13.4bn pounds. So dispute your wacky government then.

@Tiscold Here you go, US government's own research:
www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html

So you just wasted lots of time spouting nonsense about Wikipedia for no reason. Yes, a 6 year old might be able to edit it, but they would get reverted unless they were adding reliable content. Go ahead and try add nonsense to a Wikipedia article that isn't super-obscure, see how long it stays there. Honestly, no disrespect, but you don't know what you are talking about. Go and edit it for yourself and you will learn how it really works.

They also show Scotland is running a much bigger deficit in percentage terms than the UK. Scotland's 'net fiscal balance', to use the technical term, is -£13.44 billion, or -7.9%, down from 8.9%. The equivalent figure for the UK is -£39.36 billion, or -1.9%, down from 2.3%. Apologies I'm using out of date figures from 2017 here is the 2018 figures.

A recent SNP 'growth commission' recommended that an independent Scotland should reduce its deficit to -3%, or below, like other small countries.

She also repeated the commission's claim that public spending could grow at the same time as the deficit was being reduced, thanks to greater growth in Scotland's economy.

As an aside it's worth noting that claim is disputed by two very distinguished independent think-tanks, including the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which said the commission's plans would be a continuation of 'austerity'.

we can say the SNP government now accepts that Scotland has a deficit. For many years the party disputed the very basis of GERS. That changed some time ago. And that, you might argue, is progress.

Yes, GERS attempts to calculate a 'notional deficit' for Scotland, but this is not a Scottish government deficit and is not about an independent country. It is an attempt to calculate Scotland's 'share' of the UK deficit. The figures are widely used because they are the only regular attempt to calculate Scotland's 'notional' fiscal position, but they are also widely criticized... much in the way I buy my local newspaper but don't think much of most of its output (I don't have any choice if I want to understand what's happening in my area).

These threads always give me a warm glow inside. They only pop up when Unionists are getting worried.