To think Scotland should be allowed to leave the UK and remain in the EU

[nickiredcar]

New poll says that most Scots think they would be better off leaving the UK after brexit. It's time they had another vote right?

^It might not be a England that pays, but Scotland's greater portion of the pie, and England receiving less spending than collected in tax creates the conditions that allow Scotland to offer fee/cheaper education and prescriptions

You are aware that the UK government spends much more than it raises? And that Scotland gets more per head as it needs it due to its spread out population? I'm sure you are also aware that free prescriptions actually save money over the administrative costs of paid ones? And that an educated population makes a country more productive?

So why the fuck do you think Scotland's so special as to not have to go along with the majority UK vote??

Scotland is a country. Cambridge isn't. I don't think Cambridge would have enough resources for independence, but London probably would.

On the a Scottish person's passport it with say 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. It will say the same on the passports of the Welsh and English too. All part of Great Britain, all part of the UK. As far as the EU (and indeed the rest of the world is concerned), Scotland is not a separate country.

Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain.

Scotland is a country in its own right.

Sigh...

If the GERS are right an independent Scotland would need to boost revenue collection and may for political reasons have to reduce its commitments somewhat for a few years--though it's obvious Scotland is not going to be paying for Trident (we will almost certainly be paid for tolerating it), and may escape interest payments on treasury-owned debt (which make up a big part of the current 'notional deficit'). It's really not a big deal, there's no reason all the debate about Scottish independence should focus on an alleged temporary budget deficit. The obsessive focus on that issue is madness. The 'union' means that Scotland is being strangled by chronic under investment, macroeconomic mismanagement and resource extraction at our expense. Absolute madness, it's like a slave refusing freedom because she's told she doesn't have enough income to afford a deposit on rent.

I know Northern Ireland isn't part of GB.

Sigh indeed.

If Scotland is a country in it's own right, why doesn't it simply stay part of the EU, as it wishes, then?

Cambridge would have enough resources to be independent. We live in a globalized trading system, Cambridge is one of the best educated places in Europe, with independence it would become a tax haven and a mecca for creativity and economic innovation. They'd probably be able to line the streets with gold within a few years. London would probably do alright, but again only because of the globalized trading system. London literally has almost no resources. The city would be reduced to starvation in days without this system. Without the global economy London gaining independence would be as ridiculous as a manor trying to be independent of an estate.

However, as others pointed out, London and Cambridge are not nations. Scotland like Ireland and like Finland is a nation. England is a nation too. The international political system is premised on existence of the nation and its sovereignty, existing in practice or just potential. If you have a problem with that then how about you let the Chinese and Indians have a vote on Brexit or the price of English water bills.

England, Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland are not listed by the International Organisation for Standardisation as separate countries.

@DeltaG Who cares, presumably they are only listing sovereign states. You realise that Scotland is not an independent state, right? That's what this whole conversation is about.

Everyone has the right to self-determination. www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/cescr.aspx

If the people of Cambridge voted for independence then that must be allowed. Equally if the people of Scotland vote for independence it must be allowed. Why would you want to prevent this?

Interesting to see the many points about Trident

It's said that "Faslane is the second largest single-site employer in Scotland ... with around 11,000 jobs directly and indirectly reliant on the base" (source: ukdefencejournal.org.uk/fact-check-many-jobs-depend-faslane/)

If this is true it's maybe a bit surprising to see it being spoken of as "tolerated"

There is no list in heaven of all the separate nations of the world (or if there is no-one down here has seen it). Scotland is a nation in the sense that, and to the extent that, it is regarded as such by people, by its inhabitants, by officials, by the international community, and so forth. The people of Scotland regard themselves as a nation. The UK government regards Scotland as a nation. The international community does to some extent. If the UK wishes to continue to portray itself to the Scottish people as a 'union' of different nations, rather than an English empire (which is probably what everyone else in the world thinks), it can't then say 'hey, why are you special Scotland, you are not a nation'. But it's playing a two-faced game here, the UK is a 'union of nations' but then a single unitary nation depending on when its convenient for England and what referendum is at play.

@Puzzledandpissedoff That's silly, Trident costs jobs. Trident is insanely capital intensive. You could hire ten times that number of people to throw ice cream into the Clyde and still pocket billions in savings.

It also says that only 520 of those jobs are civilian.

Nyx I am certainly not a nationalist, an isolationist or ”Brexity”.

I am a unionist and also very much pro European. Not that I need to explain myself to you.

My point, which I will make again because it is not complicated, is that had the people of Scotland voted out of the UK in 2014, Scotland would have had to have left the EU. And based on the requirements for membership, would not have qualified to join (and still don’t). Pro Indy voters knew this but were prepared to exit Europe if it meant getting out of the Union.

Supporters of Scottish independence will never be happy about the result in 2014 but to use Brexit as a reason to demand another independence debate is in my opinion disingenuous.

'Scotland would have had to have left the EU. And based on the requirements for membership, would not have qualified to join (and still don’t). Pro Indy voters knew this ...''

Not any I knew. Most that I knew just assumed this was propaganda, and that the EU would welcome us as soon as the politics were over and we were actually going to be independent.

www.europeanfutures.ed.ac.uk/article-4667

This^ is an interesting read.

"Scotland already meets almost all of the EU’s acquis – from the Single Market and the Common Agricultural Policy, to the Common Foreign and Security Policy and the Customs Union. So it would already meet most of the EU’s current 35 chapters that have to be negotiated for the accession process."

"Key issues to negotiate would include Scotland’s budget contribution, Schengen, justice and home affairs, and the euro. It is unlikely that Scotland would be able to keep the UK’s budget rebate but, given its receipts from EU structural and agricultural funds, it would probably face being a very small net contributor to the EU’s budget."

It is important to also note that lots of independence supporters don't want to be in the EU. But when we are independent we will be able to make these decisions ourselves.

"Supporters of Scottish independence will never be happy about the result in 2014 but to use Brexit as a reason to demand another independence debate is in my opinion disingenuous"

Well we'll have to disagree then (who'd have thought it?) Because the SNP were elected on a manifesto that clearly stated that the SNP stresses that independence will only be achieved when the majority of people in Scotland want it to happen.

It said the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is "clear and sustained evidence" that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people - or if there is a "significant and material" change in circumstances, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against its will.

Nothing disingenuous there. Scotland faces being taken out of the EU against the will of the majority of Scottish people, therefore we should have a

sorry, hit send too soon. Should have another referendum.

But why do people who want Scotland to be independent only want it from the rest of the UK and not Europe?

And yes we’ll have to agree to disagree.

But why do people who want Scotland to be independent only want it from the rest of the UK and not Europe?

Because Scotland would have an equal say in the EU. Because being in the EU would help Scotland flourish, rather than holding it back.

Because being in the EU is nothing like being in the UK. Really. Not at all. In any way.

The EU controls around 15% of the laws and power of the constituent countries. Every country has a veto. or all or most of any policy that the EU suggests, and the UK currently has opt outs for stuff that doesn't suit its interests. The UK parliament is still sovereign and it can exercise its right to leave the EU unilaterally.

As for Scotland within the UK. The UK controls 80 to 90% of our laws and power and allow us to administer the rest for as long as it suits them, but always letting us know that they have ultimate control and can claw back powers. They decide our economic policy and they say they alone have the authority to decide whether or not we can decide if we want to withdraw from the union.

As I said above, Ireland has a lot of power in the Brexit negotiations while Scotland doesn't have a seat at the table. Our wishes and needs are ignored, sidelined and our elected politicians are heckled and jeered at in parliament. It's a joke to say the two unions are similar in any way.

The EU is collaborative. The UK is Westminster fucking it up for everyone with no restraint.