To think Scotland should be allowed to leave the UK and remain in the EU

[nickiredcar]

New poll says that most Scots think they would be better off leaving the UK after brexit. It's time they had another vote right?

Seriously? So do Scotland really think we're going to give them pots of money to leave? Because they'd need it!

On the other hand, if we didn't give them anything, maybe they'd stop being a drain on England's resources...

Lol, mention day job......minions assemble!

Jaxhog - wait and see. Why do WM want Scotland to stay? If we are such a drain?

Bejazzled - hmmm ok whatever

Here we go, drain on England's resources again....
www.businessforscotland.com/revealed-the-accounting-trick-that-hides-scotlands-wealth/

I think it was Robin Macalpine who said "GERS shows us that all sorts of successful independent countries would struggle if forced to become regions of the UK"

You should do some reading Jaxhog. Nobody believes that Scotland is 'a drain' on rUK any more.

From a link on Susanne's post below:

Alistair Darling, Head of the No campaign – “The question is not whether Scotland can survive as a separate state. Of course it could.”

Ruth Davidson, Leader of the Scottish Tories – “I believe Scotland is big enough, rich enough and good enough to be an independent country.”
Anas Sarwar, Deputy Leader of Scottish Labour – “Scotland would probably be a successful country if it was an independent country.”

Iain Gray, former Scottish Labour Leader – “I do not think Scotland is too small, too poor or too stupid to stand on its own.”

David McLetchie, late Scottish Conservative Leader – “An independent Scotland would be viable.”

Michael Moore, Secretary of State for Scotland – “You’ll never hear me suggest that Scotland could not go its own way.”

Professor Brian Ashcroft, CEO of Fraser of Allander Institute ( –

Denis Healy, former UK Chancellor, “I think they [Westminster politicians] are concerned about Scotland taking the oil, I think they are worried stiff about it…I would think Scotland could survive perfectly well, economically, if it was independent…I think we did underplay the value of the oil to the country [for political reasons]”.

And finally,
“Supporters of independence will always be able to cite examples of small, independent and thriving economies across Europe such as Finland, Switzerland and Norway. It would be wrong to suggest that Scotland could not be another such successful, independent country.”
David Cameron

What? I thought we Scots were a bunch of subhuman beggars whose burdensome oil prevented us from being independent of our beneficently charitable master neighbour.

Haven't read all the thread (actually I have read op only), I definitely do think Scotland should be allowed to leave the UK and remain in the EU.

Just for clarity I am born and living in England but if the white paper that was part of the original Scottish referendum remained the same then I would be granted Scottish citizenship due to parentage. I am also entitled to Irish due to grandparents but sadly can't afford the fees involved.

So just incase it want clear Yes to Scotland being free of UK and remaining in EU.

Now I'll go back and read the thread!

This myth that we were promised continuation of EU membership if we voted to remain part of the union is garbage..
The decision to hold a referendum on the EU was made BEFORE we had the Indy vote.
The possibility that we may leave the EU if we remained a member of the Utd Kingdom was well publicised at the time by the SNP during debate but we still voted No.
Can't have it both ways.

Is Scotland a country in its own right though that could remove itself from Britain and become an EU member state? I don't know that Scotland is actually a state?

Great Britain is a land mass just the same as Europe is.
The United Kingdom is a union. Just like the EU is.
Scotland is a country. Just like England is.

What do you think Scotland is, Heyjudas? Northbritainshire? Of course it's a country For goodness sake.

Earthmover, myth? I don't think so. As explained earlier in the thread, it was one of the planks of the 'No' campaign that an independent Scotland would be out of the EU, amply publicised by the media. The SNP may have tried to point out that it was possible that we could be dragged out unwillingly if we stayed with the UK but this was seen as ridiculous, nonsense, in fact treated by unionists the same way as most things the SNP say. It can't really be denied that the SNP were right though. As they are right in what they are saying about Brexit now. In my opinion.

And saying the UK is a union like the EU is a union is a bit much really. The two unions are poles apart when you look at it.

Look at the how Ireland is treated in the EU union and compare it with how Scotland is treated in the UK 'union'. Ireland has a lot of power in the Brexit negotiations while Scotland doesn't have a seat at the table. Our wishes and needs are ignored, sidelined and our elected politicians are heckled and jeered at in parliament. It's a joke to say the two unions are similar in any way.

When I was at primary school we were taught that Britain was made up of England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. That was all. It didn't seem important to learn about how that happened. It also didn't seem important to get the details right.

It was London in the 1970s so maybe the idea of Ireland being part of Britain could have been explored a little, since the political implications of that statement were pretty significant.

So when I consider how I had to reconstruct what I thought I knew about the UK it makes me wonder what other people think they know. I still have almost no knowledge of Scottish or Welsh history, but I can name all the monarchs from William the Conqueror to Elizabeth II because that's what I was taught. Meanwhile, we learned next to nothing about the British Empire except that it was really really big.

As usual I'm ranting but I can't help feeling that a bit of historical perspective is necessary in considering constitutional questions.

The decision to hold a referendum on the EU was made BEFORE we had the Indy vote.

Eh? Decision for EU referendum Feb 2016 www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33141819

IndyRef Sept 2014

This myth that we were promised continuation of EU membership if we voted to remain part of the union is garbage

We weren't promised continuation, that is true.

But we were told, time and time again, that the only way we could guarantee to be part of the EU was to remain in the UK.

Time and time again.

If Scotland is such a massive drain on English resources, why are English politicians so very keen to keep Scotland within the UK? You would think they would be glad to be rid of us...

ronatheseal

What? I thought we Scots were a bunch of subhuman beggars whose burdensome oil prevented us from being independent of our beneficently charitable master neighbour

This is just drivel. Separatists love this strawman argument of what anyone opposing separation is supposed, according to them, to think of Scotland.

Lass - sarcasm, not drivel. Obvious to me but maybe not to everyone.

Any response to why would Westminster wish to keep Scotland from independence if Scotland was actually a drain on their resources? No-one's answering that.

On the other hand, if we didn't give them anything, maybe they'd stop being a drain on England's resources..
I've seen the same shit spouted about NI.
Yes they should be able too, but would it be the best in the end for the People normal people.
NI is a major factor in the disagreements. If NI was to unite with the Republic there is no NHS, no free medical services,it costs us 100euro to visit a&e or a GP is usually 60. The waiting lists for any health service is horrendous most people wait so long, they collapse and discover they've cancer in A&E. No dla, you get 20euro extra if your disabled, no services for the disabled, no dla cars, if unemployed your rates still stand, bin charges, TV licence, high rent unless you have enough money you're screwed.

It's a moot point anyway Calyx because the Scottish people voted to remain part of the UK in 2014.

I get really irritated when I hear statements like "Scotland is being dragged out of the EU against her will" because Scotland would have been chucked out of the EU is the vote had been "yes" in the independence referendum.

The hypocricy of the SNP using Brexit to drive Indyref2 is astounding. If you read about this in any depth you will realise that the true Scottish independence supporters also voted out of Europe and in favour of Brexit because that's the only way that Scotland can be truly independent.

Many of those who voted for Scotland to leave the UK but now want to remain in the EU are actually first and foremost anti English and a lot have no basic understanding of the severe austerity which people living in Scotland would have to endure. It is already the highest taxed part of the UK and with basic services struggling, is quickly becoming a very unappealing place to settle if you have ambition, aspirations and importantly choice.

Finally, more people in Scotland voted for the UK to leave the EU than voted for the SNP at the last election which is clear evidence that the people of the Scotland support Brexit more than the party who would destroy the Union.

You can argue till the cows come home but the fact is that those wanting independence are in a minority in Scotland and until that changes there will not be another indy vote.

I get really irritated when I hear statements like "Scotland is being dragged out of the EU against her will" because Scotland would have been chucked out of the EU is the vote had been "yes" in the independence referendum

I get really irritated when people miss the point. The point being that people were given the choice of an independant Scotland not in the eu, and a unionised Scotland within the eu.

What we have ended up with is a unionised Scotland, potentially not in the eu. That option wasn't voted for during the referendum, that's not what we were sold.

Ireland has a lot of power in the Brexit negotiations

Not because it's Ireland but because it is trying to remind the idiots in the Tory party what the GFA actually means. And as I've said ad nauseum on here, the GFA means the referendum should never have been called in the first place. It is also the reason why NI should be treated differently to Scotland.

What we have ended up with is a unionised Scotland, potentially not in the eu

I voted remain myself, I totally understand why people in Scotland who voted remain are so annoyed. But Scotland dissolving the union would cause even more mayhem and misery and it's not worth it. Plus the fact that I suspect quite a few Leave votes in Scotland were by SNP supporters hoping for a Leave result as it fits their agenda. Not enough to affect the result, but still. I'd quite like to know actually how many of the votes to Leave were by people living in Australia and the like who have no intention of ever returning to the UK.

The answer is to accept May's deal and then vote for politicians who will work towards an EEA solution. Or indeed just revoke the whole thing and try to forget it ever happened.

No bloody way. What would it even look like? If we can't separate from a separate land mass containing foreign speakers and spending a foreign currency, how the fuck do we divorce a country we can see from out upstairs windows, who we share a culture and economy with?

How would the border work?

And we did not vote 'overwhelmingly' for anything. Turnout in Glasgow was paltry.

I'm a remainer but you can't fight division, fracturing and separation by further division, fracturing and separation.

Inevitably, once the dust settles there will be yet another referendum. But on marginal issues, they bring division and misery whoever wins. They don't provide a magic answer to anything.

Skinnydecaff, what can I say.

Firstly, "true Scottish independence supporters also voted out of Europe and in favour of Brexit because that's the only way that Scotland can be truly independent". This is untrue. Who on earth appointed you to say who are 'true' Scottish independence supporters and who are not? I am a true Scottish indy supporter in that I very much want Scotland to be independent. But your view is a very narrow, nationalist one - isolationist and very Brexity. Most SNP supporters are pro-EU - not all, but most.

"Many of those who voted for Scotland to leave the UK but now want to remain in the EU are actually first and foremost anti English"
This is utter projection on your part, also very insulting and simply wrong. I am pro Scottish indy and pro EU and am very certainly not in any way anti English. This is a lazy and untrue argument which doesn't deserve the time I've already spent discussing it here. I need some proof of this please because I am really fed up with this kind of smear and lies.

"with basic services struggling, is quickly becoming a very unappealing place to settle if you have ambition, aspirations and importantly choice" Well as far as I'm aware, Scottish services are doing better than the same services in the rest of the UK. Also the Scottish Government are doing their utmost to make Scotland an appealing place to settle, in direct contrast to Westminster, who are working hard to ensure that nobody is able to settle anywhere in the UK who wasn't born here!

"Finally, more people in Scotland voted for the UK to leave the EU than voted for the SNP at the last election which is clear evidence that the people of the Scotland support Brexit more than the party who would destroy the Union."
...what about this recent poll showing that support for independence is now higher than support for Brexit in Scotland?
www.heraldscotland.com/news/17286309.poll-clear-majority-of-scots-say-independence-better-than-brexit/