To think that racial diversity in film casting has gone slightly bonkers...

[AngeloMysterioso]

When you have an Asian actress playing Bess of Hardwick?

I just can’t see why anyone thought it was appropriate to have such a prominent woman in English history being played by somebody who is Chinese- can you imagine the outcry if an important black woman was being played in a film by someone who isn’t black, or indeed a significant Asian character being played by a white woman? There’d be uproar, and rightly so. And yet, in the new Mary Queen of Scots film we have a white Englishwoman being played by Gemma Chan.

This Chinese author/blogger said pretty much the same thing, pointing out that when Ed Skrein was cast as a fictional Japanese character in Hellboy the public response was so furious that he ended up quitting. And Bess of Hardwick isn’t even a fictional character, she was a very real woman, an ancestor of our current Queen, whose life and legacy are quite remarkable.

I don’t want anyone to think that there is any racism behind this post at all. I think Gemma Chan is a fantastic actress, but I don’t know, there’s just something about it that reeks of tokenism.

And to confirm: I'm absolutely not being "deliberately obtuse". I just see skin colour (in this particular context) as just another physical characteristic of an actor which may or may not be accurate to the role they're playing. Whereas you see it as a defining trait over and above anything else.

What does “an Australian couldn't have been in Scotland at that time” mean? Are you confused? Or making a joke?...

Accent wasn't the only thing I mentioned though. What about height, weight, features, teeth? NOBODY in these films actually looks like a member of the landed gentry from the 1500s. Why is skin colour the one physical attribute you're not prepared to look past?

It isn't. I also object when stunningly beautiful actors and actresses are cast as figures who were known to be unattractive, or when the actors/actresses are much younger or older than the character they are meant to portray.

Nice try though. You think I don't see what you're trying to do here?

Tons and tons of stats about BAME people being underrepresented in Hollywood here

I didn't ask about Hollywood. I asked for evidence to back up your claim that British-Chinese actors are in need of 'positive discrimination'.

Can't really comment on your last point as I don't know anything about the Chinese film industry, but from a quick Google apparently the number of white actors in Chinese films has massively increased in the last few years.

But you know and I know that none of these actors are being cast as actual historical Chinese figures, nor will they ever be.

I just see skin colour (in this particular context) as just another physical characteristic of an actor which may or may not be accurate to the role they're playing.

It's not 'just another physical characteristic' though is it? If you cast a blonde or brunette, tall or short, fat or thin actress as Bess, it wouldn't matter. It does matter if you cast a Chinese actress, just as it would matter if you cast Margot Robbie as a Chinese noblewoman. I suspect you know that, but are playing dumb.

I just see skin colour (in this particular context) as just another physical characteristic of an actor which may or may not be accurate to the role they're playing

Then by that reasoning, there’s no such thing as ‘whitewashing’ in tv/cinema. Best man/woman wins, regardless of physical characteristics. No one should complain.

Then by that reasoning, there’s no such thing as ‘whitewashing’ in tv/cinema. Best man/woman wins, regardless of physical characteristics. No one should complain.

While we're at it, why take gender into account either? Why not cast Idris Elba as Bess of Hardwick?

@ViragoKnows ...I don't know what you mean? There were obviously no Australians in Scotland during William Wallace's time!

@IcedPurple And yet you're not protesting at Margot Robbie's casting as Elizabeth? She's both younger and more beautiful than Elizabeth. The critics certainly seem to think she's the biggest miscast in the film for those reasons, amongst others.

I also addressed actors of East Asian origin in British productions in my post - I added the stuff about Hollywood because we're talking about a Hollywood movie.

But you know and I know that none of these actors are being cast as actual historical Chinese figures, nor will they ever be.

I honestly don't know that. But I'm not sure why it's relevant, without also taking into consideration the white population within China and the racial environment (ie I don't know if white people face racism in China).

If you cast a blonde or brunette, tall or short, fat or thin actress as Bess, it wouldn't matter. It does matter if you cast a Chinese actress

But why? You say I'm playing dumb but I'm not. I really don't see why one doesn't matter and the other does.

I'm not trying to do anything. I just genuinely disagree with you.

@CookingGood It's been explained many times on this thread why colour-blind or non-traditional casting that gives opportunities to BAME actors is not the same as white-washing. There's a good post on it here: timemachineyeah.tumblr.com/post/58648290519/this-is-a-jar-full-of-major-characters

While we're at it, why take gender into account either? Why not cast Idris Elba as Bess of Hardwick?

Plenty of good roles out there for men already but I'd happily see a secondary character in a historical drama changed to female rather than male to give a female actor an opportunity.

“an Australian couldn't have been in Scotland at that time”

It's true, though, of aborígenes.

At the time, it would be more likely to find Mel Gibson in Scotland than in Australia.

And yet you're not protesting at Margot Robbie's casting as Elizabeth? She's both younger and more beautiful than Elizabeth.

Wrong on both counts. The film starts when Elizabeth was about the same age as Robbie. As for 'beautiful', QE1 was a very attractive woman in her youth, and the pics I've seen of Robbie in the role don't make her look all the 'beautiful'.

I honestly don't know that..

Well, I would bet all the tea in China that you will never ever see a white person cast as a historic Chinese figure.

But I'm not sure why it's relevant, without also taking into consideration the white population within China and the racial environment (ie I don't know if white people face racism in China)

Ah OK. So what you're saying is that it's fine to cast actors from a completely different ethnicity to the historical character if the actor's ethnicity is 'discriminated against'?

As well as that being remarkably shoddy reasoning, what evidence do you have that British Chinese face discrimination? Chinese immigrants to the UK tend to do extremely well from both an educational and financial perspective, as they do pretty much everywhere they go. So I'm interested in your evidence that they face discrimination.

*If you cast a blonde or brunette, tall or short, fat or thin actress as Bess, it wouldn't matter. It does matter if you cast a Chinese actress

But why? You say I'm playing dumb but I'm not. I really don't see why one doesn't matter and the other does.*

Again, if you genuinely don't see the difference, I'm starting to despair of ever trying to explain it.

Bess could have been tall. Or short. Or fat. Or thin. Or blonde. And so on.

Bess could not have been Chinese.

That's the difference. A pretty huge one. Which you can't or wont' see.

@Lweji Not sure many Aborigines had ventured to Europe at that time!

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_56cf57e2e4b0bf0dab313ffc

@magnificent @icedpurple and @cookinggood Did you complain when these happened?

Plenty of good roles out there for men already but I'd happily see a secondary character in a historical drama changed to female rather than male to give a female actor an opportunity.

So essentially you have no concern whatsoever for even superficial historical accuracy so long as it fits your agenda?

I guess they should cast a woman as the Earl of Leicester and made QE1 into a lesbian?

Did you complain when these happened?

The ones I was aware of?

Yes.

what evidence do you have that British Chinese face discrimination

Oh. Now I see who I'm arguing with, and that it's completely pointless. Okay. If you don't believe in the existence of institutional racism in the U.K., you're not ever going to change your mind on this one.

But for the record: So what you're saying is that it's fine to cast actors from a completely different ethnicity to the historical character if the actor's ethnicity is 'discriminated against'?

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Many people on this thread have explained why.

Oh. Now I see who I'm arguing with, and that it's completely pointless. Okay. If you don't believe in the existence of institutional racism in the U.K., you're not ever going to change your mind on this one.

Is that your way of saying that you have no evidence about the 'discrimination' faced by ethnically Chinese people in Britain?

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Many people on this thread have explained why.

They've argued, not explained.

Is that your way of saying that you have no evidence about the 'discrimination' faced by ethnically Chinese people in Britain?

No. It's my way of saying that it's pointless engaging with someone who doesn't already know that Chinese people face racism in the UK.

Here's your evidence, though. Took me all of two seconds.

"Chinese people in Britain report higher levels of racial harassment than any other ethnic group, according to the first study of its kind to be undertaken."
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/19/chinese-community-reports-highest-proportion-of-racial-harassment-in-britain

All the posters getting up in arms about a black man playing Henry VIII what about the white man who played Gandhi.

I wondered how long it as going to take on this thread for someone to mention him.

I think because he changed his name to something English sounding, people have just assumed for decades that he's an olive skinned Englishman, not a first generation Indian immigrant.

It's ridiculous. I'm certainly not racist but a play starring a black actress as Elizabeth 1 would be ludicrous. To those who would accuse me of racism, how about Tom Hardy as Martin Luther King? If race doesn't matter then it should work both ways

"Chinese people in Britain report higher levels of racial harassment than any other ethnic group, according to the first study of its kind to be undertaken."

Google isn't always your friend: that is not evidence of discrimination.

No. It's my way of saying that it's pointless engaging with someone who doesn't already know that Chinese people face racism in the UK.

OK. Let's say for the sake of argument that the above is true, despite the fact that the Chinese are an extremely successful immigrant group.

How, exactly, is casting a Chinese actress as an Elizabethan noblewoman going to change attitudes?

Given you don't believe anything I put in front of you (as if racial harassment and discrimination aren't intrinsically linked!) maybe do your own research into the importance of representation on screen and the positive impact of non-traditional casting. Have a good evening!

I’d complain about Jennifer Lawrence being cast as Rosa Parks, yes.

I’d also complain about Chadwick Boseman being cast as Abraham Lincoln.

It’s about context.

When I visit my DP's family in England I'm always so amused by the diversity on your TV. Basically every ad I see is always a mixed race couple, most commonly white women with black man honestly while interracial relationships sometimes happen here, it more often does not and I do find it out of proportion. Like trying too hard. It is a bit silly.

Generally not a fan of racebending historical figures, like Cleopatra was not West European, East Asian nor Sub-Saharan African e.g.

Lweji Not sure many Aborigines had ventured to Europe at that time! grin

That was my point.
Conversely, all white "Australians" would have been in Europe.
It makes more sense for Mel to play an historical European figure than a pre-European colonisation Australian historical figure.

And also a better Mad Max than whoever did last time.

And yet you're not protesting at Margot Robbie's casting as Elizabeth? She's both younger and more beautiful than Elizabeth. The critics certainly seem to think she's the biggest miscast in the film for those reasons, amongst others.

Yet again you seem to be assuming mutual exclusivity. Margot Robbie being poor casting (if you think that) does not prevent Gemma Chan also being poor casting.

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Many people on this thread have explained why.

This is the kind of patronising ‘I’m right and you’re wrong’ comment I was talking about. You putting forward an argument is not the same as an explanation that confirms an absolute truth.