To think that racial diversity in film casting has gone slightly bonkers...

[AngeloMysterioso]

When you have an Asian actress playing Bess of Hardwick?

I just can’t see why anyone thought it was appropriate to have such a prominent woman in English history being played by somebody who is Chinese- can you imagine the outcry if an important black woman was being played in a film by someone who isn’t black, or indeed a significant Asian character being played by a white woman? There’d be uproar, and rightly so. And yet, in the new Mary Queen of Scots film we have a white Englishwoman being played by Gemma Chan.

This Chinese author/blogger said pretty much the same thing, pointing out that when Ed Skrein was cast as a fictional Japanese character in Hellboy the public response was so furious that he ended up quitting. And Bess of Hardwick isn’t even a fictional character, she was a very real woman, an ancestor of our current Queen, whose life and legacy are quite remarkable.

I don’t want anyone to think that there is any racism behind this post at all. I think Gemma Chan is a fantastic actress, but I don’t know, there’s just something about it that reeks of tokenism.

Although it is something like 87% of the UK population is white, the proportion of black and asian people amongst the young is much higher. So adverts featuring families to be representative will also have to have a higher proportion of black and asian children and parents.

Why is it so negative that a person plays another person

Because it re-writes history - you will end up with a generation that thinks Henry 8th was Black - for example. Because they believe everything that's on the telly.

There has been a black Queen. So saying there’s never be a black king is stupid because by definition or the one drop rule which is apparent in UK’s society her children would also be black.

I genuinely have no idea what you're saying here - can you expand.

The one drop rule is racist nonsense.

Who is being described as a black Queen? Phillipa of H or Charlotte?

This is a good article looking at whether Charlotte was black. The evidence is very thin to say the least.

www.theguardian.com/world/2009/mar/12/race-monarchy

abacucat, good point although it will depend on areas. i think the Nothumberland I know young and old is 97% white.

From this useful graphe www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/british-population/demographics/age-groups/latest it looks like the very highest stat is for 0 - 4 years and that is about 17% not white.

@abacucat I don’t disagree with you. However, it is a thought held in the UK. One of my best friends was told she could not tick the white British ethnicity checkbox for her son as she herself was clearly not white. The son however, is white in looks.

@MagnificentSevenHeaven that is ridiculous. If children are only learning history through fictional tv/films then they will learn a load of lies anyway. Try to encourage children to read. In any case I don’t see any harm in people having their perception challenged maybe then there would be less racism. The issue you have is really a non issue. A child somewhere might grow up thinking an English king was black. Oh dear. White children currently grow up thinking Jesus was a white blue eyed blond man and the other falsehoods in our white washed society.
It will do no detriment to my child to grow up with a tv show which portrays Henry VIII as black, it may however help one of his peers immensely.

I honestly don't see any problem with Gemma Chan being cast as Bess of Hardwick. She's a great actress.

As has been mentioned before, Hamilton is pretty much the best thing on stage and that's a piece of brilliance with casts of all ethnicities praying historical characters.

Gender and race changes in significant characters is common and often adds to a production by challenging assumptions. The current production of Company does that, and is up for loads of awards

However, in this case it's not a massive change nor impacts how we experience the character. Gemma Chan is playing another strong British woman. Mel Gibson as William Wallace is a lot more of a stretch and that happened without to much protest.

Gemma Chan is playing another strong British woman. Mel Gibson as William Wallace is a lot more of a stretch and that happened without to much protest.

You’re winding us up. Gemma Chan isn’t a problem but Mel Gibson is?

Surely both are?

The issue you have is really a non issue.

To you mate, maybe. To me it is - because it's untrue.

Luckily my kids know their history & didn't get all their info from social media/the web etc.

It's the current crop of dozy pillocks I'm thinking about...

@MagnificentSevenHeaven but you have no problem with black children growing up thinking that only white people have a place in the world.
The whole of history is whitewashed but you have an issue with something that hasn’t even happened, if that isn’t white privilege I don’t know what is.

All the posters getting up in arms about a black man playing Henry VIII what about the white man who played Gandhi. That actually happened. Why aren’t you up in arms about children growing up thinking that only white people had/have something to offer the world? Yet still I bet you’ll be upset if someone called you racist but not unhappy enough to actually challenge your racist beliefs.

All the posters getting up in arms about a black man playing Henry VIII what about the white man who played Gandhi.

Bad example. Ben Kingsley is asian.

Besides, if you RTFT, you’ll see most people are against ALL racially inaccurate caating when it converns historical figures and PRO colour blind casting for contemporary fiction.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Kingsley

Birth name: Krishna Pandit Bhanji

Ben Kingsley is a British man of mixed heritage - white mum, dad of Gujarati descent via Kenya.

As for Mel v Gemma - yes, I have more of a problem with the liberties taken with the William Wallace story as imagined by a Hollywood star looking for a vehicle than the casting of Gemma Chan as Bess.

from Wiki:
Peter Traquair has referred to Wallace's "farcical representation as a wild and hairy highlander painted with woad (1,000 years too late) running amok in a tartan kilt (500 years too early)."
In 2009, the film was second on a list of "most historically inaccurate movies" in The Times. In the humorous non-fictional historiography An Utterly Impartial History of Britain (2007), author John O'Farrell notes that Braveheart could not have been more historically inaccurate, even if a "Plasticine dog" had been inserted in the film and the title changed to "William Wallace and Gromit"

As for Mel v Gemma - yes, I have more of a problem with the liberties taken with the William Wallace story as imagined by a Hollywood star looking for a vehicle than the casting of Gemma Chan as Bess.

What does it matter what you “have a problem with”?

An agreed standard with a rational basis is what’s needed.

@StroppyWoman I completely agree. Funny how the only historical inaccuracies people have a problem with on here are race-related.

Nobody has said that Peach

Peter Traquair has referred to Wallace's "farcical representation as a wild and hairy highlander painted with woad (1,000 years too late) running amok in a tartan kilt (500 years too early)."
In 2009, the film was second on a list of "most historically inaccurate movies" in The Times. In the humorous non-fictional historiography An Utterly Impartial History of Britain (2007), author John O'Farrell notes that Braveheart could not have been more historically inaccurate, even if a "Plasticine dog" had been inserted in the film and the title changed to "William Wallace and Gromit"

So how does any of that relate to the casting? What is your point here - another film was more inaccurate, so that makes the inaccuracies in the Mary Stuart film okay?

Nobody has said that Peach

It just suits her agenda to imply it...

As for Mel v Gemma - yes, I have more of a problem with the liberties taken with the William Wallace story as imagined by a Hollywood star looking for a vehicle than the casting of Gemma Chan as Bess.

That's an entirely different subject though.

And there's a big difference between 'embellishing' a story to make it more Hollywood friendly than casting an actress who just simply could not possibly have been the character she is supposed to portray.

just simply could not possibly have been the character she is supposed to portray

What's the difference between Mel Gibson - an Australian - playing a Scottish leader and Gemma Chan - an Asian - playing a white Queen? An Australian could not possibly have been in Scotland at that time. So why is it different?

I don't have an "agenda". I just can't see a reason to object to positive discrimination within the arts industry that isn't, at its core, at least a little bit racist. Unless you object to ALL historically inaccurate casting which, let's face it, is all of it. Someone said earlier: "you can't shrink an actor". But you can find a shorter actor. "You can't ask an actor not to brush their teeth". But you can find an actor with bad teeth. That's what you're saying when you say "find a white actor".

If they're the best person for the role, they're the best person for the role. Skin colour - like height, weight, hair length, accent, nationality, ability etc - shouldn't come into it - UNLESS it's taking away an already limited opportunity for an actor from a marginalised community.

If they're the best person for the role, they're the best person for the role

And that’s the OPs reason for starting this thread. Was she the best person for the role or was she cast as a ‘token’ to get people talking about it?

What's the difference between Mel Gibson - an Australian - playing a Scottish leader and Gemma Chan - an Asian - playing a white Queen? An Australian could not possibly have been in Scotland at that time. So why is it different?

I honestly don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse or not.

Actors play characters from different nationalities all the time. Sticking to the same film, Queen Elizabeth is being played by an Australian actress, and Mary by an Irish accent. However, both are - presumably - changing their accents to make them sound English/Scottish but raised in France. As actors of the same ethnicity as the characters they are portraying, that's really all they have to do.

However, an ethnically Chinese actress like Gemma Chan cannot possibly make herself look like a member of the landed gentry from the 1500s. The difference is fairly obvious, if you choose to give it even a moment's thought.

If they're the best person for the role, they're the best person for the role.

An ethnically Chinese actress - however talented - cannot possibly be the best person to portray a historical figure who was white. It stretches plausibility beyond any reasonable grounds.

I just can't see a reason to object to positive discrimination within the arts industry that isn't, at its core, at least a little bit racist.

You can't see it because you refuse to see it. Also, what percentage of the British population is ethnically Chinese? Why do are they in need of 'positive discrimination? Do you think any Chinese production would even think of casting a white actress in the role of a Chinese noblewoman?

Accent wasn't the only thing I mentioned though. What about height, weight, features, teeth? NOBODY in these films actually looks like a member of the landed gentry from the 1500s. Why is skin colour the one physical attribute you're not prepared to look past?

As for your other points:

Tons and tons of stats about BAME people being underrepresented in Hollywood here: assets.uscannenberg.org/docs/inequality-in-1100-popular-films.pdf And that was just the first study I found - there's plenty more out there. (And this is a Hollywood film we're discussing.) Hard to know in Britain as "mixed race" is a separate category and a lot of East Asian origins (Korean, Japanese, Philippino etc) all come under "other", plus the figures are from 2011. But even if we take a very conservative estimate of 1% (given that even then 0.7% of the population identified as Chinese), 1 in every 100 leading actors in British drama is not East Asian. I'm actually not sure I can think of one outside of Gemma Chan in Humans though I admit I haven't spent lots of time thinking about it - the privilege of being white.

Can't really comment on your last point as I don't know anything about the Chinese film industry, but from a quick Google apparently the number of white actors in Chinese films has massively increased in the last few years.