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Original poster

To think that racial diversity in film casting has gone slightly bonkers...

501 replies

AngeloMysterioso · 08/12/2018 10:06

When you have an Asian actress playing Bess of Hardwick?

I just can’t see why anyone thought it was appropriate to have such a prominent woman in English history being played by somebody who is Chinese- can you imagine the outcry if an important black woman was being played in a film by someone who isn’t black, or indeed a significant Asian character being played by a white woman? There’d be uproar, and rightly so. And yet, in the new Mary Queen of Scots film we have a white Englishwoman being played by Gemma Chan.

This Chinese author/blogger said pretty much the same thing, pointing out that when Ed Skrein was cast as a fictional Japanese character in Hellboy the public response was so furious that he ended up quitting. And Bess of Hardwick isn’t even a fictional character, she was a very real woman, an ancestor of our current Queen, whose life and legacy are quite remarkable.

I don’t want anyone to think that there is any racism behind this post at all. I think Gemma Chan is a fantastic actress, but I don’t know, there’s just something about it that reeks of tokenism.

OP posts:
peachgreen · 10/12/2018 10:59

I think it's okay for white people to talk about race as long as they are a) listening more than they're talking and b) primarily using their voice to amplify BAME voices.

Xenia · 10/12/2018 12:32

If we mean talk about racial discrimination (rather than just generally talking about race) I agree that those who ahve suffered the discrimination have a lot to say about it. We do however all have a legal right to express views so in law it is okay for white people to talk more than they listen if they want to and they don't have to hshare the views of everyone else if they don't want to (although listening to other people is often a very good idea).

ElsieCat · 10/12/2018 16:34

I've just come back to this thread to say that I'm watching TV now, (Channel 4) and I've seen just four adverts in a row that contain only black people, (first advert) a mix of black and white in roughly equal proportion (2nd advert) and a mix of all sorts (Asian, black, white, mixed race) but with the majority appearing to be non-white (3rd and 4th adverts.)

And I am now watching a programme with a black presenter.

I am not complaining about this. But I am arguing with the people on this thread who've been insisting PoC are under-represented in the media and TV.

You are just plain wrong.

ElsieCat · 10/12/2018 16:38

And now there are more adverts.

First advert white woman only.

Second advert mixer of races (one of the same adverts as before)

Third advert a black guy and black or mixed race girlfriend.

Then 2 ads with no humans in them.

Then an advert with two white people.

Another one with no humans

No one with a mix of black and white people

ElsieCat · 10/12/2018 16:39

Sorry, that last one should have said NOW one with a mix of black and white people

TacoLover · 10/12/2018 16:50

Elsie it's so great to see a white person come on here with their rock hard evidence of one channel's adverts one time to prove that all us POC are just 'plain wrong' about representation.

Also noticed how most of the POC you mention in the adverts you saw are either black or mixed race with one Asian. It's this kind of attitude people have with 'oh yeah, there's black people therefore everyone who isn't white is therefore represented'. Like, no.

But thank you for enlightening us. It's so obvious to me now how plain wrong I am.

downthestrada · 10/12/2018 16:52

The production was excellent, but I couldn't get on with it as the leads were so blatantly not their parents' offspring. Really off-putting.

Perhaps because they are all actors Wink

But, in real life there are biological families that don’t look alike. My sister and I are a completely different colour to our parents (even if facially I look a bit like my mum). People can’t seem to handle families with genes that cause them to be different colours. You can get two siblings that actually look pretty similar and it’s all “oh isn’t the darker one sooo different”. It’s why people often assume my husband is dad’s child rather than me. I would have thought these days people would be used to this, but no.

ElsieCat · 10/12/2018 16:54

More now.

Ad 1 - no humans
Ad 2 mix of black and white but 'main' woman is black
Ad 3 mix of black and white
Ad4 mix of all sorts but 'main' woman black, white people in minority
Ad5 no humans
Ad 6 mix of black and white

These are not all the same ads by the way, some are repeated but not all.

ElsieCat · 10/12/2018 16:59

Taco I didn't say there was one Asian. Actually there were several and I was trying to find a way to distinguish between Japanese looking and Indian looking without having to type too much as the ads were moving quickly so I just typed Asian for ease.

One ad had a white guy and a woman who looked perhaps middle eastern but could have been mixed race Indian, or just European but quite olive skinned, it was hard to tell, so I didn't even count her.

ElsieCat · 10/12/2018 17:03

It's so obvious to me now how plain wrong I am.

Well judging by your sarcasm it's not obvious at all. Why don't you watch some TV (not channel 4 right this minute or you'll be seeing all the same adverts as me) but another commercial channel some time soon and do the same exercise? Also just randomly watch some news or magazine shows and some game shows or something where you don't know the cast, presenters or participants in advance. It would be interesting to see how things compare.

peachgreen · 10/12/2018 17:16

@ElsieCat there are dozens and dozens of studies that prove that BAME people are underrepresented on television in the U.K. It's not just about numbers, it's about proper representation - BAME actors in leading roles, as romantic interests etc etc. That's what isn't proportional.

Adverts tend to be more proportional than the majority of TV because adverts featuring a variety of races tend to perform better.

ElsieCat · 10/12/2018 17:29

Actually let's take MN right now as an example. On the first page I see 32 humans in photos. (33 actually, but one of them is Justine so we won't count her.)

Of the 32 human beings I can see, 15 I would describe as non-white. So 'People of Colour' in the UK are over-represented hugely here.

I am now clicking on the 'Conception' page. I can see 10 people. 1 is non-white. Slightly under-represented, but only slightly.

Now the pregnancy page. 21 people. 9 are not white. Hugely over-represented.

'Parenting.' 17 people. All white. Not represented at all.

'Life And Style.' 13 photos of people where I can actually make out a race/ethnicity. 6 are not white. Over represented.

'Jobs' I can see 8 people clearly. 2 are not white. Slightly over-represented.

'Reviews.' Three white women, 4 white babies, Asian twins, a black man and his black baby. A white woman and her white baby. Scroll down a bit, now it's 3 Asian looking babies and a mixed race child (black/white) Then two more Asian looking babies. Over represented.

'Shopping.' 7 people, one non-white. This is probably pretty close in terms of proportional representation in the UK right now.

I'm going to find a totally different website to look at now. Back in a mo.

ElsieCat · 10/12/2018 17:44

Debenhams. Women's clothing. First page I opened.

www.debenhams.com/women

11 photos of various women. I'd say only three feature women that I would describe as white.

I'm going to try to think of something that isn't strictly advertising now, because of what peach said.

ViragoKnows · 10/12/2018 17:47

A government website? Do any kf those have photos?

It IS interesting if advertising is doing that much better at casting BAME actors than, say, the UK film industry.

TacoLover · 10/12/2018 17:48

It's a bit amusing to see a white person listing all the people of colour they see in their day to discount POC's experiences and somehow prove me wrong with their 'oh look I saw some black people and a few Asians on TV today and on a couple of websites therefore you're all wrong and over represented' approach.

Xenia · 10/12/2018 17:50

No one disputes the ads over represent non whites. It is not a surprise at all but we all see them day in day out (presumably because that sells products)

ViragoKnows · 10/12/2018 17:57

I thought the point was the disparity between different types of media product, taco?

I don’t watch many adverts but I can perfectly well see that there’s too much reliance on “one Afro Caribbean parent, one Caucasian parent, two smiley mixed race children, all being happy in a terraced house”.

Original poster
AngeloMysterioso · 10/12/2018 17:58

Ok, Elsie, we get your point.

My question wasn’t really to do with whether POC are over or underrepresented in the media in general, but rather whether the way to fix underrepresentation is to cast them in roles playing real people (not fictional characters) who were white. As I said, it feels like tokenism. If it is wrong in one direction (casting white people as POC, which I understand does happen but is rapidly diminishing) then it should be wrong in the other.

OP posts:
smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 10/12/2018 17:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ElsieCat · 10/12/2018 18:00

Actually Taco I'll take a punt that I see more people of colour in my day than you see in yours. But I've seen people say over and over on this thread that BAME are under-represented on TV and media. I'm just having a look at TV and media to see whether they have a point or not. So far I'm saying not.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 10/12/2018 18:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TacoLover · 10/12/2018 18:12

Elsie what it looks like to me is that you're completely discounting what other people have said about POC representation in the media and said that we're 'plain wrong' because you've had a flick through your TV and and pottered around the internet for ten minutes, and so because at one time in an incredibly small sample you've seen POC that's end of discussion and we should just stop making claims about representation because you've presented us with rock hard evidence or somethingGrin

ElsieCat · 10/12/2018 18:14

smile Absolutely not trying to prove (or indeed suggest) that it should be reduced, I'm merely saying that I disagree that there is under representation of BAME people in TV and media, that's all.

But I see now that people are trying to move the goal posts and start all the whataboutery with CEOs and prisons. Confused

And no, I don't see that my 'tone' is disturbing.

I think yours is though.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 10/12/2018 18:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

IcedPurple · 10/12/2018 18:19

so because at one time in an incredibly small sample you've seen POC that's end of discussion and we should just stop making claims about representation because you've presented us with rock hard evidence or something

Elsie's evidence is pretty limited, I agree.

However, what statistical evidence can you present to support your opinion that POC are underrepresented in British media?