To think that racial diversity in film casting has gone slightly bonkers...

[AngeloMysterioso]

When you have an Asian actress playing Bess of Hardwick?

I just can’t see why anyone thought it was appropriate to have such a prominent woman in English history being played by somebody who is Chinese- can you imagine the outcry if an important black woman was being played in a film by someone who isn’t black, or indeed a significant Asian character being played by a white woman? There’d be uproar, and rightly so. And yet, in the new Mary Queen of Scots film we have a white Englishwoman being played by Gemma Chan.

This Chinese author/blogger said pretty much the same thing, pointing out that when Ed Skrein was cast as a fictional Japanese character in Hellboy the public response was so furious that he ended up quitting. And Bess of Hardwick isn’t even a fictional character, she was a very real woman, an ancestor of our current Queen, whose life and legacy are quite remarkable.

I don’t want anyone to think that there is any racism behind this post at all. I think Gemma Chan is a fantastic actress, but I don’t know, there’s just something about it that reeks of tokenism.

If it is wrong in one direction (casting white people as POC, which I understand does happen but is rapidly diminishing) then it should be wrong in the other.

How many times does it need to be explained that it doesnt work the same both ways? Have you read your own thread OP it's been discussed by pp multiple times

The vast majority of main characters that were written as POC have their race central to their storyline, as we haven't had many stories about us that aren't focused on our race. Because of this is makes no sense for a white person to play it because the story is about the colour of their skin. It doesn't work the other way around because in the vast majority of stories where the lead is white, it is not centred around their ethnicity.

The other issue is where white people take the roles of POC characters because there are so little in the first place; when you can't get the lead for a character whose race has no bearing on the story e.g. Cinderella because the character is traditionally white, yet a white person (hypothetically, haven't actually seen this) can play Mulan, when there is already a shortage of Asian stories, it seems unfair.

It doesn't work the other way around because in the vast majority of stories where the lead is white, it is not centred around their ethnicity.

But as the OP has again emphasised, she is talking about a very specific case, where an ethnically Chinese actress was cast as an actual historical figure, a woman who was white, as were all the women of her social class in Britain at the time. Bess of Hardwick was not Asian. That is a fact. This was a time when only tiny numbers of Asians lived in Britain, and they certainly were not present among the gentry. So casting an ethnically Chinese actress in this role is nonsensical.

yet a white person (hypothetically, haven't actually seen this) can play Mulan

Right. So you're basing an argument on a hypothetical scenario? OK.

However, what statistical evidence can you present to support your opinion that POC are underrepresented in British media?

There is some info about ethnic minorities working in media here:

www.ofcom.org.uk/about-ofcom/latest/media/media-releases/2017/diversity-uk-television-industry

More here about diversity in television:

www.inclusiveboards.co.uk/uktelevsionrepresentationofdiversity/

This is about reality tv:

www.vice.com/en_uk/article/qv3kkd/why-is-there-so-little-diversity-in-british-reality-tv

I can find more if needed.

Picking a frankly non issue ignores the day to day discrimination people are facing. Why not talk about Racism in football? That more black men are in prison. That if you are black you are four times more likely to be sectioned

The OP chose to start a thread on this 'non issue' and you chose to respond.

There's absolutely nothing stopping you from starting a discussion on the above issues if you consider them important. However, they are not the subject of his particular thread.

But as the OP has again emphasised, she is talking about a very specific case

I know. I was responding to where she is talking about how it should be the same both ways for POC and white people.

Right. So you're basing an argument on a hypothetical scenario? OK.

I didnt have an exact name of actor and movie of an example when a white person played a POC character so I used that as an example but it's pretty obvious that they exist, no?

Only one of those links is really relevant (one is about employees of media companies, the other only a discussion about reality TV). And in the link which shows stats for each minority groups, it doesn't seem that POC are significantly under-represented.

I didnt have an exact name of actor and movie of an example when a white person played a POC character so I used that as an example but it's pretty obvious that they exist, no?

Well, it would certainly help your case if you used a real rather than hypothetical scenario, but yes, white actors have been cast in roles which should have been taken by POC. And as has been said 100 times already, this is wrong. Casting an Asian actress as a white woman from history is also wrong.

. Or would you rather those who actually know what they are talking about. That is BAME leave so you can discuss us in peace?

There's clearly no point trying to engage with you so I can't be bothered to waste my time.

Taco That incredibly small sample you are talking about happened in real time, at random, on the TV and two popular websites in a period of half an hour or so, and look what it turned up.

I could do another 'small sample' tomorrow and the day after if you like. Ignoring product advertising and looking at (for example) NHS public service information or local government websites, or a recruitment drive for teachers, or regional TV news anchors or a breakdown of the racial profile of all the characters in Coronation Street or East Enders in the last 5 years. Blue Peter presenters, Goggle Box participants, Love Island participants, contestants on Bake Off, Strictly, Masterchef. Mastermind. Whatever the hell you like.

So the uk is 82% white British.

And these ‘non specified race’ roles that are advertised are being auditioned for by actors, presumably that reflect this? So if 10 people turn up for the part then 8.2 of them are statistically likely to be white. (And one being Idris Elba, because, like, hes the only black actor going by this thread) Which means the probability of a white actor getting the part is more likely.

Or do you believe the minority auditionee be given favour to get the part just by virtue of being a minority and encompass diversity?

Because of the way the world has operated for the last several thousand years, race is always integral to a life story.

When a PoC is depicted in a biopic - especially one produced in the West, as most are - their race will always be integral to the narrative because it most certainly was to their life.

But it works the other way too. A person with Chinese heritage would not have been landed gentry in Britain - only a white person would. So, while their ethnicity is not what the story is about, it is integral to the narrative because to give them a different one would be to change their story dramatically. Too dramatically to be remotely realistic.

It’s different with fiction. Theoretically, you could give Mulan a different universe to live in and change her ethnicity in the process but it would be offensive to do so. There are so few roles being written for people of colour that it’s important to conserve the ones there are (and encourage new ones to be created).

Academically, you could argue that it’s “unfair” to be allowed to make Sherlock Holmes black (in a new universe) & not be allowed to make Mulan white - but it’s an “unfairness” that only exists to right the unfairness of trying to exclude people of colour from films and TV shows for so many years.

It's not moving goal posts. And the fact you believe it is shows the level of priviledge you have

I have no idea what you mean by that. This thread is about tokenism in casting which then moved on to levels of BAME representation in film and media. That's all. My comments have been limited to that subject specifically. I don't see how it strengthens anyone's argument on this thread, on this subject, to start talking about a lack of black CEOs and the number of black people in our prisons. You'll have to explain it to me and also explain why it's my privilege that stops me understanding.

For a discussion about under or over representation of BAME in the media or advertising a thinking person. If there were indeed true could ask why that may be. I could discuss the over sexualisation of non white people and the social exploitation of this but clearly that would also go over your head

I don't understand any of this either, but I think that's due to some typos.

Surely if you are a PoC actor you'd much rather plan an actual PoC part

Only one of those links is really relevant (one is about employees of media companies, the other only a discussion about reality TV).

How are those links irrelevant? You asked about representation in media. I provided a link about POC in media and one about reality TV(which does include statistics). Reality TV is a big part of television which makes up media, no? And whether or not you think the statistics on the third link aren't that far below the national percentages of POC, those statistics prove that POC are under-represented.

Surely if you are a PoC actor you'd much rather plan an actual PoC part

The problem is that there are hardly any roles written specifically for POC; and anyway, there are plenty of actors who would rather be in a piece not directly related to the colour of their skin; I can try and find some interviews I watched recently where a South Asian man was frustrated about the roles he was offered, as they were mostly stereotypes of his ethnicity.

I do get that while in an ideal world film and TV would be telling all sorts of stories about all sorts of different people but we are far from that.

Again, it's not about numbers. It's about the types of roles BAME actors are being cast in. Crazy Rich Asians made huge headlines because it cast Asian people as romantic leads, something we very rarely see. The furore over #OscarsSoWhite - BAME actors not winning or being nominated for acting awards isn't just because the selection and voting process is racist, it's because there are less BANE actors getting those leading roles. Counting the number of BAME people in some adverts and on a website and deciding that proves representation within the media is proportional is just ridiculous.

BAME actors are finally getting some work, it seems from the detailed research on this thread.

When Hillary Clinton was running for US president, someone pointed out that Hillary getting the job wouldn't be equality. What would actually be equality would be 43 female presidents getting the job. In the spirit of that, I could not be happier that mixed-race families seem to be in fashion in advertising land, finally giving some opportunities to some BAME actors. More power to their collective elbows.

After all, a few ikea ads don't add up to cultural erasure.

*The vast majority of main characters that were written as POC have their race central to their storyline, as we haven't had many stories about us that aren't focused on our race. Because of this is makes no sense for a white person to play it because the story is about the colour of their skin. It doesn't work the other way around because in the vast majority of stories where the lead is white, it is not centred around their ethnicity.

The other issue is where white people take the roles of POC characters because there are so little in the first place; when you can't get the lead for a character whose race has no bearing on the story e.g. Cinderella because the character is traditionally white, yet a white person (hypothetically, haven't actually seen this) can play Mulan, when there is already a shortage of Asian stories, it seems unfair.*

But what you, and many others, on this thread have failed to address is the fact that, if a character - particularly a historical character - being white does not affect their story, then being non-white clearly would. In the example of Bess of Hardwick, being Chinese would have MASSIVELY affected her position. Ignoring that is genuinely insulting to people of Chinese heritage. Why not concentrate on writing genuinely colourblind roles - or non-gender specific roles, such as Sandra Bullock in Our Brand is Crisis?

As to your other point, I’ve seen a black Cinderella and a black Annie, but never a white Mulan (and neither have you). I’m totally with you on it being wrong for white actors to portray black or Asian characters - but that doesn’t make the reverse right. Patronisingly suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you simply doesn’t understand isn’t helping your case.

Why not concentrate on writing genuinely colourblind roles - or non-gender specific roles, such as Sandra Bullock in Our Brand is Crisis?

Yes of course that's the ideal but it's not going to happen until the industry is assured that productions with BAME actors in lead roles can make money. And that won't happen without incremental change. This is a start.

A historical character having perfect teeth and skin and the height and build of a modern actor would have affected their position too but you're able to suspend your disbelief for that - why not for skin colour?