To think that racial diversity in film casting has gone slightly bonkers...

[AngeloMysterioso]

When you have an Asian actress playing Bess of Hardwick?

I just can’t see why anyone thought it was appropriate to have such a prominent woman in English history being played by somebody who is Chinese- can you imagine the outcry if an important black woman was being played in a film by someone who isn’t black, or indeed a significant Asian character being played by a white woman? There’d be uproar, and rightly so. And yet, in the new Mary Queen of Scots film we have a white Englishwoman being played by Gemma Chan.

This Chinese author/blogger said pretty much the same thing, pointing out that when Ed Skrein was cast as a fictional Japanese character in Hellboy the public response was so furious that he ended up quitting. And Bess of Hardwick isn’t even a fictional character, she was a very real woman, an ancestor of our current Queen, whose life and legacy are quite remarkable.

I don’t want anyone to think that there is any racism behind this post at all. I think Gemma Chan is a fantastic actress, but I don’t know, there’s just something about it that reeks of tokenism.

A historical character having perfect teeth and skin and the height and build of a modern actor would have affected their position too but you're able to suspend your disbelief for that - why not for skin colour?*

Because you can’t shrink an actor. And asking an actor not to brush his teeth for 30 years is taking method acting a little far. Casting a white actor as a white person is incredibly simple.

I agree with OP but if you ever say anything like this you’re instantly labelled a racist.

Because you can’t shrink an actor. And asking an actor not to brush his teeth for 30 years is taking method acting a little far. Casting a white actor as a white person is incredibly simple.

This.

Maybe the issue is not as simplistic as “instantly being labelled racist” but instead taking the time to look/think more broadly and deeply at a certain level of unconscious bias that so often takes place around and with regards to POC, ie somewhat being oblivious of the experiences of POC.

Obviously white actors should not play historical parts of real black and Asian people. I think the reverse is true as well. In most films/dramas of real people, the fact that someone is black or asian would have had an impact on their real life story. So a black woman say playing a historical white queen, is presenting a situation of racial harmony that is totally unrealistic. That is a dangerous message to send out.

This particular film is incredibly inaccurate historically though, so I don't think it matters in that film.

With non real people, I really don't care. Cinderella could be played by a black woman as easily as a white woman. It makes no difference to the story at all.

There is only evidence of one black person being at the Tudor court. That was John Blanke a trumpeter who was paid on one off daily basis for working at celebratory events. Most of the black and Asian people in Britain in past centuries worked in various sectors of the entertainment industry. But the numbers were incredibly small.

Obviously just the tip of the iceberg and a point that has been covered, but this wiki page includes various examples of whitewashing in film, with several recent examples and upcoming titles featuring white British actors in the role of a non-white historical figure. I don't see the practice dying out any time soon.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitewashing_in_film

Patronisingly suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you simply doesn’t understand isn’t helping your case.

When have I done this? Others have..ElsieCat told us POC that we're 'plain wrong' about under representation despite evidence and experience of POC because she went on her internet jolly trying to spot black people yesterday.

Helen Mirren played Queen Charlotte in The Madness of George lll. Debra Gillet is currently playing her in a stage production.

How would people feel about a Black Henry the Eighth? Scott of the Antarctic? Kennedy?

Nothing wrong with diversity, it shouldn't be at the price of accuracy though - especially with regards to the main historical figures.

How would people feel about a Black Henry the Eighth?
Fine

Scott of the Antarctic?
Fine

Kennedy?
Fine

HTH.

PS: The RSC has gone both gender and colour-blind for next season

**

Why? Theatre and screen media are completely different.

You say, “fine” Lonny but the scenario is absurd and does smack of tokenism to the detriment of common sense.

A black man would never, ever have been elected president in the 60s.

A black man would never, ever have been the King of England.

To suggest that they could be portrayed that way in biopics is to dismiss the reality of who they were entirely and how the world was when they were alive.

Using real characters in fictional universes is OK...Vincent Van Gogh in Doctor Who, for example...and gives you licence to change them to fit a narrative. But a biopic striving for some element of accuracy? Ridiculous.

The “HTH” is rather smug, by the way.

Yeah...the RSC is chiefly concerned with Shaspeare’s plays. Fiction & fictionalised versions of historical characters.

No. keep up with what people are saying.

Shakespeare’s

Fine

Really? So you're quite happy to rewrite European history & erase our historical figures for the sake of wokeness?

Absolutely ridiculous.

Presumably this goes both ways and we are, at some point, hoping to reach total colour blindness then? So a white actor playing Nelson Mandela or Obama in some future biopic. Also with Obama having a white parent then a white person would make just as much sense as a black person to play him?

When have I done this?

What about here?

How many times does it need to be explained that it doesnt work the same both ways? Have you read your own thread OP it's been discussed by pp multiple times

Theatre, screen and advertising have been conflated across the whole thread Virago

I disagree utterly that PoC are under-represented in media and all the whataboutery in the world won't change that.

As I read somewhere recently, 'the people who say representation doesn't matter are generally the people who are used to seeing themselves always represented'.

Oh and I'm as far from 'woke' as I am from Woking.

RSC is different. Shakespeare plays hardly pretend to be historically accurate. Midsummers Nights Dream for example??

Historical real life people should be portrayed accurately within reason.

@MagnificentSevenHeaven but you are happy for @TwittoWho to erase European history to perpetuate racism. There has been a black Queen. So saying there’s never be a black king is stupid because by definition or the one drop rule which is apparent in UK’s society her children would also be black.
Why is it so negative that a person plays another person. Half of the actors are from private schools so surely they shouldn’t be allowed to play someone from a council estate as it’s unbelievable.

All of these people talking about white actors playing black people are obviously incapable of seeing that one it already happens and two that there are so few black actors getting good parts as they tend to be terrible stereotypes but this is the I’m alright jack mentality that is pervasive.

White actors should not play black people I agree. And I have joined in the outcry on twitter when it happens.

There are just too many different topics on here to generalise. A group of teenagers in an area of the UK with no black people probably could do a play where one or two are playing black people just as my son cuold be Mary in his all boys' Christmas nativity play as there were no girls in the school.

I agree that we get people with perfect white teeth playing roles where people would not have had teeth - although Baldrick in Blackadder comes to mind -t hey did a pretty good job even in that comedy of showing him looking pretty scruffily dressed etc.

I also agree that advertising and plays on stage and soap operas and films are all different as are things made for local audiences in various countries and those to be shown internationally.

Theatre, screen and advertising have been conflated across the whole thread Virago

By some, maybe. It’s not a teason to join in.

I disagree utterly that PoC are under-represented in media and all the whataboutery in the world won't change that.

I cant follow what or who you mean. Do you mean over-represented?

I’m not sure if it’s me youre accusing of whataboutery or why. I was only observing that theatre is different from tv and film