To be shocked that Mn has been branded a “hotbed of transphobia”

[Badmoonsarising]

BY Vice msgazine no less!

broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

Yes, woman calls for all transmen to be sterilised, but apologises because she was just a bit angry that day. People continue to see her as some sort of ‘leader’ in a ‘completely non-transphobic’ debate, yet complain when TRA who say equally ridiculous things that are bad for woman, are seen as some sort of ‘voice’ in the trans debate.
I’m a believer in language meaning something, myself.

yet complain when TRA who say equally ridiculous things that are bad for woman, are seen as some sort of ‘voice’ in the trans debate.

I ignore random people on twitter and agree that always focusing on extreme twitter posts drives division (and has contributed to tribalism in politics).

However it's difficult to ignore people who hold political office in a mainstream party, are appointed to advisory positions by main stream political parties or run what appear to run official twitter accounts for main stream political parties. You can't write these people off as outliers.

Wasnt Posies point that transmen should want to be sterilised because a heavily pregnant woman pretending they are male is nuttier than squirrel shit?

X post with BitterMints, I hadnt seen that statement but glad she clarified what she meant.

She believes that women are often treated very badly in Islam, and some of what she's said about that has been twisted to suggest she's a racist
Just to add to this, she also claimed that the word islamaphobia was [quote] a ‘bullshit, meaningless word to silence critics’

I agree no extremists should hold positions of power, whichever side you’re on. Someone saying things such as ‘lesbians should suck lady dicks’ Should be held responsibile as much as someone using transphobic slurs.

For your analogy to hold ratrolypoly, the immigrants would need to come from a group that has historically oppressed the British people, and that still held considerable structural power over them today. Without this vital context, no comparison is ever going to be valid.

And the immigrants would have to be arguing that there was no way of defining who was British, and the British people would have to have some physical characteristic that both made them different to non British people and contributed to their oppression.

Silly article designed to stop women dissenting. Genderism is like a religion. Only the faithful believe people can change sex. The gender critical are heretics not transphobes. The writer might as well have checked out a atheist thread and then complained about their lack of religious belief.

YABU. It is.

I doubt many of the trans activist forums are particularly pleasant about women and women's rights.

EarlyWalker I agree.

If a GC feminist insist a transwoman be forced to perform a sex act, Id be as equally horrified as when I read about lesbians and lady dick.

Its just that women dont act like that, do they?

98% of sex offenders are male, so it stands to reson 98% of people who come out with this vale rapey crap are male.

I do partly agree with that. However, I see calling for mass sterilisation of a group of people just as horrifying though.
There are bad people with ill intentions on both sides. We should not condone either. When those who are genuinely out for woman, distance themselves from those who are out to be controversial it will make a greater impact. I also think that trans people need to take a stand against the TRAs. Until both of these things happen in mass, it just appears to be low-blow bickering back and forth with no real solutions being brought to the table.

Hyppolyta having heard Posie explain about that comment then yes, that's what she meant. It's the finest of batshittery to claim as a woman that you have severe gender dysphoria and that you identify as a man then deliberately get pregnant. It doesn't get much more female than being pregnant so to be do whilst claiming you are a man is madness and does nothing to help the argument that gender dysphoria is a real thing but not a mental illness.

Thank you Red I appreciate the discussion because it feels like something that I haven’t felt has been discussed before. I agree that “phobia” isn’t the correct word to be used either when discussing my own views. I’m actually gender critical but I feel that there are certain arguments (such as phobia = fear of) that I know don’t feel reflect my own views and I appreciate a definition that I do feel encompasses me.

I agree no extremists should hold positions of power, whichever side you’re on.

Yet the situation is always being described as 6 of one and half a dozen of the other - toxic TERF feminists and TRAs - when gender critical women can't even hold meetings without disruption and even discussing the issue on Women's Hour with Helen Lewis is too threatening for Stonewall's head of trans inclusion.

It's a bit disingenuous to say it's a shock that people have this perception. Whether you agree with it or not, there are so many threads about transphobia, its pretty bloody obvious that this is how the site is perceived.

I also think that trans people need to take a stand against the TRAs.

At least two transwomen have posted on this thread largely agreeing with the MN feminist view. The letter in the Guardian was mentioned, and the abuse that those transwomen got for writing it.

Bearing in mind that transsexuals with GRCs are outnumbered about 100 to 1 by Stonewall trans umbrella types, what else do you expect them to do, and do you expect them to succeed?

Earlywalker, you've said that you don't think our view of transgender people should be coloured by the few that want lesbians to suck their ladydicks. Why are you letting your view of MN feminists be coloured by a couple of careless remarks by Posie Parker, who I don't think is even on MN?

I also think that trans people need to take a stand against the TRAs.

And I think part of this is coming to terms with the reality that defining the members of an oppressed group does necessarily exclude people who are outside that group, but that that isn't a bad thing.

Catching up, but well said @lassupthebrew

I know someone with acute gender dysphoria. They hate their sexed body. They should be able to do what is needful to live in some kind of peace with themselves.

I would hope that that is deep therapeutic treatment before drugs and surgery, because drugs and surgery are still experimental - to me, the situation for transwomen is a bit like for women when the contraceptive pill was first being trialled. Women were guinea pigs.

But NO-ONE should have difficulties with work, housing, or general treatment in public because of how they dress or behave (as long as they're lawful, not a public nuisance etc etc).

I just wish that men would challenge masculinity. It's so harmful and toxic in its extremes. And it means that 'feminine men' can suffer severe mental health problems, as well as become victims of male violence. it's not gender-critical feminists who beat up transwomen and feminine men

Gender's a prison.

That’s my point. Posie Parker is usually the spokeswoman for GC people in debates.
Her phrases include ‘woman who call themselves men should be sterilised’ she expanded and said ‘fuck off. I don’t think mutilated woman who call themselves men should be giving birth to children with no understanding a mother exists. If you don’t give a shit about kids don’t have any’

She also said to transgender people ‘you’re all facist cunts. No wonder we fear imposters like you. Fuck off you will never be woman’
Cunt is regarded as quite a mysogonistic insult, no?

Yet you are allowing her to speak for you. To present your side of the argument. The side you claim is out for woman, and not transphobic. The side that is not name calling.

Would you say you hold the same views as Posie on all issues? What about when she calls hijabs disgusting, islamaphobia made up, complains about Muslim MPs holding more power than woman, blames Pakistani culture for rapists etc... do you agree here? No? Or would you say that not everyone on the same side about one issue holds the same views? And that we can’t judge a group of people by their self appointed spokesperson?

YAbu, why are you shocked? Have you not seen the obsession with transwomen on here?

Posie Parker is usually the spokeswoman for GC people in debates.

Rubbish. She is one of many women with strong GC views who often gets media coverage. There are many other women who also speak up in the media. For example, the six GC women who were featured on Women's Hour on radio 4 over the last 3 weeks - Posie Parker wasn't one of them.

Yet you are allowing her to speak for you. To present your side of the argument. The side you claim is out for woman, and not transphobic. The side that is not name calling.

I'm pretty sure she's not on MN, but even if she was, she's not speaking for me. I'm speaking for myself. If you want to argue with Posie, why don't you track her down on twitter or facebook or wherever, and argue with her there.

Would you say you hold the same views as Posie on all issues?

Of course not. I don't suppose I'd agree with anyone on all issues.

Or would you say that not everyone on the same side about one issue holds the same views? And that we can’t judge a group of people by their self appointed spokesperson?

Posie is not a 'self appointed spokesperson'. Posie speaks for Posie. I speak for myself, and so do most people. Why are you so obsessed with her?

I have a nephew who is struggling with gender.

Having witnessed the gut wrenching agony he & his family endure, I can promise you it's no whim. That said, I never fail to be shocked by how judgemental women on this forum are & therefore can only agree with the statement.

Posie Parker is usually the spokeswoman for GC people in debates.

She is occasionally on television but doesn’t hold any formal political office. Whether or not I agree with every single thing she says I believe in her right to freedom of speech as I believe in the right of TRAs to express their own views within the law. I’m not ‘allowing her to speak for me’, she has a right to speak.

The TRAs that concern me aren’t ‘self appointed’, they have been given power by councils and political parties.

I forgot how much points go over people’s heads here.
Didn’t you have whole threads running over one TRA Doctor? But if I make a point about Posie over 3 posts I’m ‘obsessed with her’
Glad to see #NoDebate is still live and well on mumsnet.