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To be shocked that Mn has been branded a “hotbed of transphobia”

999 replies

Badmoonsarising · 07/12/2018 14:20

BY Vice msgazine no less!

broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Ohmno · 07/12/2018 17:16

No one cares about VICE and their dishonest fake shill media

Allaboutmeandyou · 07/12/2018 17:17

He does see himself as transgender and my description of him is what I see. I did try and have that conversation with him years ago even now I am still confused. It matters to me and to the people who disagree with his choice of how he wants to live his life and kick the shit out of him.

Oblomov18 · 07/12/2018 17:17

I don't think Mn is transphobic. At all.

JAPAB · 07/12/2018 17:18

It's beyond me why anyone except the transphobic would try to pretend that transphobia isn't common on this forum.

There are two explanations for why anyone would deny the transphobia. One is PR. The other is that they simply do not recognise it. If to you traansphobia is aggressive hate speech then I don't think there is too much of that here.
The transphobia here is of the more subtle variety. It is more in the prejudiced assumptions that are made about trans people and why they are trans, or in the brush-tarring of the whole thing with the actions or opinions of an extreme subset of trans people.

Infact above someone explained that there is no comparison with homosexual or bi people because they didn't tell people they were being 'phobic if they didn't sleep with them etc. As if this extreme opinion is somehow intrinsic to transpeople.

P.S. Some gay and bi people did demand others change language and definitions to fit their ideology. How about marriage.

Allaboutmeandyou · 07/12/2018 17:19

I love Brighton and everything it stands for.

exLtEveDallas · 07/12/2018 17:21

Soooo many sockies on this thread Smile

I'm always amused that shite 'woke' journos pick on MN, that is moderated and has transphobic (however tenuous) comments removed when they want some woke points, but never have the balls (arf) to go after sites like Kiwi Farms, Data Lounge or Piston Heads where there are real, unmoderated, violently transphobic posts.

It's so fucking obvious and cowardly of them.

And of course it's seriously embarrassing (and cringeworthy) when posters on MN jump onto threads like this, but wouldn't be seen within miles (or Bytes?) of posts on any of those sites.

If you really believe what you are saying here, put your money where your mouth is and have a go...Yeah, that's what I thought Grin Grin Grin

CuriousaboutSamphire · 07/12/2018 17:21

Allabout those people aren't the posters here. Most of whom would like nothing more than to eradicate gender stereotypes and let people just be people, dressed in clothes, any clothes, with/without make up etc.

If the posters you see as transphobic were to have their way then your dad could look like Grayson Perry on any day of the week and we would smile and call him Grayson/Clare depending on how he presents.

Unlike the TRAs we are arguing against, who would call your dad Truscum and all sorts of other nasty names as wella s visiting physical violence upon him - examples of that behaviour are also held up here as TRA activism that needs to be stopped!

It isn't the presentation or even the 'living as' posters here have an issue with.

TheBubGrower · 07/12/2018 17:24

I've seen lots of commentary on mumsnet that has shocked me and made me uncomfortable regarding trans people. All in the name of "radical feminism". The big brother thread when India Willoughby was on there was quite frankly disturbing

Allaboutmeandyou · 07/12/2018 17:24

exLtEveDallas You've been about haven't you I have never heard of those sites before today. How did you find them and did you share your point of view with them.

BruegeITheEIder · 07/12/2018 17:26

even questioning the current rhetoric gets you the label of transphobic

And whenever anyone suggests that transphobia might actually be an issue, the ranks always eventually close, with the feminist board regulars labelling them as having drunk the kool aid, etc, so they can go back to reassuring each other that they're all good people with genuine feminist concerns, etc. etc. – as can be seen in the last 10 posts or so.

OldCrone · 07/12/2018 17:26

It matters to me and to the people who disagree with his choice of how he wants to live his life and kick the shit out of him.

Have you ever seen anyone on the feminist forum saying they want to 'kick the shit out of' trans people?

No problem with anyone living their life as they want to, as long as it doesn't affect the rights and freedoms of others.

Men who want to dress as women - no problem. Men who declare that their female clothing makes them a woman and gives them the right to enter female-only spaces - problem.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 07/12/2018 17:32

Breugel you are conflating a refusal to concede biological impossibilities with something else.

At risk of repeating myself, this is the most talked about topic because Self ID and trans ideology is the biggest threat to women at the moment.

All other feminist issues are still being discussed, but have the trans topic included out f necessity. It is impossible to talk about women's services like rape crisis centres/women's refuges without acknowledging the problems in Canada or the removal of funding due to a lack of inclusivity, ie not including men!

Pay gap - being hidden by transwomen, wh obviously earn the same as they did when they were openly male

Rape - figures being muddied as now, apparently, women can rape, with their own penises!

And on...

Allaboutmeandyou · 07/12/2018 17:32

It would look very odd my dad going to the mens toilet in his dress. I bet many trans women have used the women's toilets and you never noticed.

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 17:32

BruegeITheEIder, whatever.

You are being disingenous.

I'm sorry, but this needs to be talked about. 'Nodebate' was when real problems have started.

Oblomov18 · 07/12/2018 17:34

"the vast majority or people think that saying a trans woman is a man is transphobic. "

Allaboutmeandyou · 07/12/2018 17:34

Rape - figures being muddied as now, apparently, women can rape, with their own penises!

The story wouldn't only have woman raped man it will go into more detail.

sackrifice · 07/12/2018 17:35

It would look very odd my dad going to the mens toilet in his dress. I bet many trans women have used the women's toilets and you never noticed

I am sure they have. Shame they didn't ask the female's permission before invading their spaces.

The toilet is a man's toilet, not a trousers toilet. I am sure he would be perfectly safe in a man's toilet, what with him being a man and all.

Bittermints · 07/12/2018 17:36

Way back in 2004, the Labour Party introduced the Gender Recognition Act to make it possible under strictly limited circumstances for individuals to apply to have their birth certificates reissued showing the opposite to their birth sex.

The debate on the GRA was not very long or detailed. A number of MPs and Lords did try to raise exactly the issues that a lot of people on MN are raising now. They were all told not to worry, it was only ever going to affect a tiny number of people (5000 was the estimate) and there would be very strict gatekeeping.

Only over 18s could apply. Medical confirmation of a gender dysphoria diagnosis needed. Assumption (but not requirement) that anyone applying would be likely to be having medical treatment, e.g. hormone therapy and/or surgery. Anyone married applying for a GRC would have to get their spouse's agreement. Nobody could apply until they had been living in the target gender/sex for two years minimum, proof required.

Fast forward to now and there have indeed only been about 5000 Gender Recognition Certificates issued in that 14 year period. However, Stonewall and other transgender lobbying organisations/individuals now say that the number should be far higher. They cite the cost (which is £70, with discounts for people on a low income), the intrusion and bureaucracy (which is not that different from having an interview to get a passport or benefits) and they want the age limit reduced and no necessity to have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. They don't want any evidence to be required of living as the opposite gender/sex for any period of time. They also want the spouse to have no say at all.

Stonewall have a definition of transgender that would include most of the population. A conservative estimate of everybody who might identify as transgender or nonbinary or genderfluid in the UK at the moment is half a million.

That's a bit different from 5000 people with agonising gender dysphoria seeking medical treatment as an absolute last resort.

sackrifice · 07/12/2018 17:37

The story wouldn't only have woman raped man it will go into more detail.

No. Again you are not up with the latest news.

Men who rape, if they say 'I am a woman' are included in the statistics as being a female rapist.

OldCrone · 07/12/2018 17:37

It would look very odd my dad going to the mens toilet in his dress.

Why? Some of us have got over the 19th century notion that a person in a dress must be female.

Should I be using the men's when all the clothes I'm wearing (apart from underwear) were all bought in the men's department?

Allaboutmeandyou · 07/12/2018 17:38

The toilet is a man's toilet, not a trousers toilet. I am sure he would be perfectly safe in a man's toilet, what with him being a man and all.

You would be happy for my Dad to get beaten up as long as he wasn't in the female toilets.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 07/12/2018 17:38

Allaboit Yes, for decades that has happened. But most women did notice, but were polite and said nothing. Many, my sister included, would have left without using the facilities. But wouldn't have said anything!

What has changed that? TRA demands have eroded the willingness of many women to turn that blind eye. Your dad is being poorly served by TRA behaviour. He is having his regular life changed because many women are now too angry or scared by what TRAs are demanding. They are no longer accommodating men in dresses in female spaces!

I don't necessarily like that I am now less accepting than I was 2 years ago. But even in my rural backwater I have been harangued for not having a preferred pronoun, for not agreeing that TWAW and for having looked twice at a man in a changing room - I left!

And I have a transfriends and colleagues. One whom I have known for 30+ years.

sackrifice · 07/12/2018 17:40

You would be happy for my Dad to get beaten up as long as he wasn't in the female toilets.

Why would he get beaten up?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 07/12/2018 17:40

The story wouldn't only have woman raped man it will go into more detail. Yes, but reading she raped and victims being asked to refer to their male attacker as she in court is not acceptable.

Nor is the fact that the ONS will report those crimes as having been committed by women!

That is why so many here are so vocal! The ramifications are enormous... and are already happening!

exLtEveDallas · 07/12/2018 17:41

@Allaboutmeandyou

Yep, been about, that's me. Always going about the Internet.

It's quite interesting, you know, getting views from a vast spectrum of people. I find some of those views abhorrent of course, but it's useful seeing them. If only to be able to say, with utmost certainty, that MN compared to (for eg) Kiwi Farms is positively fluffy on the trans debate.