To be shocked that Mn has been branded a “hotbed of transphobia”

[Badmoonsarising]

BY Vice msgazine no less!

broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

Jezebel/allabout read up on a few things apmentioned and you might see that what you call transphobia really isn't.

In fact, I believe transexuals are not very well received by the TRAs, 'tru scum' I believe they are called. Transsexual suggest you need to have had surgery to be trans, so unfortunately you are both being transphobic. Sorry about that.

I don't know who Karen White is, I didn't know Ian Huntley is now claiming to be trans. I don't know what a terf is or what the GRA is. So I don't know enough to be involved in a discussion on transexualism itself.
Hence I'm sticking to the discussion on whether MN (Feminism board) is a hotbed of transphobia. And I feel it is

Bloody hell! You know nothing about the issues that many posters here are angry about, the root cause of the threads and posts you are commenting on and yet you feel you are right when you judge them to be transphobic?

I am utterly dismayed at that!

There will always be Karen Whites. Black, white, male, female, gay, straight, bi, trans.
You can't hold a whole collection to account for the behaviour of one person.

It was an awkward question for you. Not stupid. Awkward.

I can see the articles point of view in a way but I can also see the feminist issues.

For me there are only really three points that irk me about the current trans movement

A) Female sports, it needs to be protected. Biologically born males shouldn't compete against biologically born females.

B) Single sex spaces. I think if someone has fully transitioned then by all means share the same naked space as me, but otherwise no. I really don't want to see other penises as a victim of abuse, it's triggering.

C) the terminology cis woman. I reject it, don't call me it. I am a woman, o don't need a subcategory.

Other than that though, yeah I'm pretty easy going. I won't deliberately most gender someone or believe they can never identify as a woman or whatever other gender they wish to identify as. This is separate to biological sex however. Your chromosomes don't change.

Lol, a bit of an own goal there, Jezebel.

It is perhaps my ignorance of transexualism (or the issues with it that a lot of posters here have) that gives me an unbiased and objective opinion.

Mate, there will always be rapists, just let the men in to rape the women if they want to, jaysus! It’s not difficult.

coach

I would say that’s the view of about 90% of the people on the feminist boards. It’s also the view that will get you called a nasty transphobic terf.

I have never engaged in a debate on this before. I don't know who Karen White is, I didn't know Ian Huntley is now claiming to be trans. I don't know what a terf is or what the GRA is. So I don't know enough to be involved in a discussion on transexualism itself.
Hence I'm sticking to the discussion on whether MN (Feminism board) is a hotbed of transphobia. And I feel it is.

Lol. I won't look at the issues but I will join in with having a pop at the people pointing out the issues.

And by having a pop I mean...threatening them with knives and baseball bats.

You can't hold a whole collection to account for the behaviour of one person

Ok, agreed, what would be your personal upper limit for the amount of harm that can be done to women by men abusing self id before reassessing it as a good thing?

So you do agree then that the term transphobic is apt for a lot of the posters here? Fear of transexuals. Or specifically fear of transwomen.

I think the Oxford dictionary defines it as "dislike or prejudice" towards them rather than fear necessarily. That would certain apply to the majority of posts on transgender issues.

Not an own goal. I'm not biased either way, but I can see the fear and bias on the Feminism board.

No it's just ignorance, Jezebel. I don't know anything about cars, but I think I'll pop over to Pistonheads to give them my 'unbiased and objective' opinion on motoring.

It is perhaps my ignorance of transexualism (or the issues with it that a lot of posters here have) that gives me an unbiased and objective opinion.

Oh Lordy Lordy me.

I’m going to start saying this about everything now.

It is perhaps my ignorance of the Irish stop gap (or the issues with it that a lot of posters here have) that gives me an unbiased and objective opinion.

It is perhaps my ignorance of heart surgery (or the issues with it that a lot of posters here have) that gives me an unbiased and objective opinion.

It is perhaps my ignorance of town planning (or the issues with it that a lot of posters here have) that gives me an unbiased and objective opinion.

I can see the fear and bias
How do you know if it's bias if you don't know anything about the subject in the beginning?

I would say that’s the view of about 90% of the people on the feminist boards

That could be true. But 10% is a pretty large number on a forum as popular as this one.

jezebel

I know the rhetoric on here seems to be that men transition only to invade women's spaces. I'm not sure about the statistics on that, but I very much doubt that going through all that pain would be done on a whim.

That isn't correct though.

The 'rhetoric' is:

1. No one has said men only transition to invade our spaces. Self ID makes it easier for predators to say they identify as women in order to access women's spaces, and because of the nature of self ID they cannot and will not be challenged. This is going to harm people like your friend because she isn't going to be protected from them either. The word 'transition' means nothing anymore.

1. Feminists on here fully understand that people struggle with dysphoria and most are (or were before Transactivists started pushing so hard) willing to give leniency to genuinely dysphoric individuals as a courtesy in the same way we have for decades. No one is denying it must be a horrendous thing to feel like you're in the wrong body. But a feeling doesn't make it true. And changing your body with surgery doesn't change what sex you are.

1. Your friend is what would be known as a transsexual. A group of individuals labelled as 'truscum' by transactivists because saying you need to have dysphoria goes against the current way of thinking. They are seen as the outcasts and traitors of the trans world now.

1. The current 'no debate and no questioning' ideology has had significant homophobic impact, by encouraging the transing of young gender non conforming children that would likely otherwise grow up to be lesbian or gay. It is sterilising a generation of gay and lesbian children by making them think there is something wrong with them. The transactivist agenda is more homophobic than any feminist agenda.

Stonewall's umbrella definition of 'trans' includes cross dressers and men that simply get sexual kicks from dressing as a woman. Where is the 'pain' and 'suffering' that should make us feel sorry for them to the point we budge over and let them in our spaces? Things have changed a hell of a lot in the last couple of years but the public just doesn't know about it yet. Reading this kind of information feels uncomfortable because you are thinking about people like your friend, not the people that are not dysphoric, not having surgery, and that are driving policy. When you realise how much the landscape has changed you may feel less uncomfortable.

This isn't about people like the person from your support group. There are actually plenty of trans posters on these boards that are in the same position as your friend. Many of them think the same as us, that the current transactivist agenda actually harms genuinely dysphoric transsexual individuals more than it helps them.

You say you 'scroll past' yet seem fairly certain that we're all just horrible people who are afraid of transwomen. You're wrong We aren't afraid of transsexuals. We're afraid of a gaping loophole being enshrined in law for predatory men. How can you claim that MN is transphobic if you don't actually know anything about the current political climate and what the concerns are?

I would say that’s the view of about 90% of the people on the feminist boards

Absolutely

I’m proud of my ignorance and I’m proud to tell you you’re all wrong, eh Jezebel! That’s the spirit.

There will always be Karen Whites. Black, white, male, female, gay, straight, bi, trans.
You can't hold a whole collection to account for the behaviour of one person.

Erm, nor do you have to change the law to help them commit crime and get away with it.

Why were single sex spaces invented in the first place? Might it been to give the class 'women' some protection against the class 'men' - acknowledging male violence patterns without labelling all men rapists?

You know, I rather think it was!

That could be true. But 10% is a pretty large number on a forum as popular as this one.

I didn’t say ten percent took a harder line. Lots take a softer like than that and the rest will be a mixture.

I know enough.

I don't know anything about cars, but I think I'll pop over to Pistonheads to give them my 'unbiased and objective' opinion on motoring

TBF, you don't need to know anything about cars to identify them as prejudiced if they were all saying "anyone who drives a Ford is worthless scum".

BruegeITheEIder, thats disingenous.

The purpose of the article was to condemn MN for allowing discussion of the issue full stop. The article fails to mention something which is explicitly transphobic - just it doesn't like. It criticises how cis and terf have been banned fgs!

What really gets me, is how there are trans people who SHARE the opinions and reservations of women who are ALSO being called transphobic and are called traitors for agreeing with the concerns expressed on MN and for supporting campaigns with strong MN ties.

And thats ultimately the point; the article dislikes campaigns that have been organised and supported by MN users. Its that which it wants to shut down most. It only supports MN for the 'right type of campaigning'. Not the difficult stuff which exposes raw nerves and is sensitive.

Until politicians gets to gives with the fact that change is a slow process that needs to be nutured not force fed in an aggressive fashion and help to facilitate a much more nuanced debate in the press and in political circles then this conflict of opinions is going to continue. Mainly because it needs to.

Not just for the sake of women, but also for trans people too.