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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Aibu to think most people have no idea what it's like being a secondary teacher.

256 replies

Tiredteacherlass · 06/12/2018 19:50

I believe that most people have no idea how bad behaviour is and how most schools have feral children and no real means of control.

I'm fed up. the shouting, the filthy language, the name calling, the drugs, the absolute lack of slt support.

OP posts:
BarbarianMum · 06/12/2018 22:22

Yes and of course its only the smart kids that matter. Never mind all those poor averagely academic kids dumped in secondary moderns, they barely matter at all Hmm

waterrat · 06/12/2018 22:23

@EndofTetherReachedToday I'm glad that there are schools out there letting kids play but my experience has been a drastic curtailing of anything playful from mid way through year 1.

One of my children is in year two and he is being pushed very hard with literacy and numeracy - way beyond his natural interest even though he is a cheerful and enthusiastic chid - it's just too much for him.

I think it's no wonder that children with behavioural issues don't flourish in this system - it is completely geared to pushing kids through tests we know are utterly meaningless.

I honestly think we will look back in a few years at the Year Six sats and think what the hell were we doing. Taking 10 year olds and filling their head with pointless grammar that adults don't need ever - instead of encouraging creative thinking and teaching them how to be good and useful individuals in the world and find the skills they want to develop as young teens.

BathshebaKnickerStickers · 06/12/2018 22:24

I trained as a secondary school RME teacher in Scotland 23 years ago.

Not a single word of my training covered bad behaviour and classroom control.

The 3 teachers I had placements with were all broken and done... and taught me nothing about bad behaviour and classroom control.

My training was AWFUL.

I did 6 weeks supply when doing my masters (away from education) and i’ve not been in a secondary classroom since.

I’ve spent my work life after children as a classroom assistant in primary as my mental health is so fragile that I cannot cope with the scrub and responsibility of teaching

Walkingdeadfangirl · 06/12/2018 22:39

We need a change, so that head teachers can actually expel pupils permanently. And we need a type of military boarding school for these pupils where they can legally use corporal punishment.

These kids need disipline, punishment & routine away from wifi, social media, the internet and their parents to learn how to behave.

Greensleeves · 06/12/2018 22:41

So....your solution is to bring back Borstal.

TakeAWalkOnTheWildSide · 06/12/2018 22:45

We need a change, so that head teachers can actually expel pupils permanently. And we need a type of military boarding school for these pupils where they can legally use corporal punishment.
Shock

These kids need disipline, punishment & routine away from wifi, social media, the internet and their parents to learn how to behave.

I agree with you on Wi-Fi and social media.

Your idea of behaviour and someone else's will not always be similar, thankfully, because you sound sadistic to me, wanting to physically abuse people.

Kikithewitch · 06/12/2018 22:46

My son is in year 5 and last week the police arrested one of his classmates for bringing a knife to school, they’re 10 Shock
DS is at what you would call a ‘nice’ school, but a couple of kids in his class are feral, the one arrested last week has been caught smoking in the toilets which set off all the sprinklers, he’s assaulted my son and other children and frequently swears and disrupts the class. I've complained many times when DS has been hurt but there is only so much the school can do, he’s on a managed move to the school after being excluded from 2 previous schools.

Graphista · 06/12/2018 22:50

"what’s changed in 20 years with behaviour?...It was lines/detentions/suspended/excluded" because those punishments largely no longer exist except for worst offenders. I'm not a teacher but have family and friends who are and have been in some cases over 30 years. Their hands are completely tied. Even issuing extra homework requires ridiculous justification. Detentions aren't that day or even after school.

I started high school I think the year after corporal punishment was made illegal. I'm not saying that we should have that back but teachers HAVE to be trusted to teach AND to discipline. It is not going to kill a child to give them extra homework, lines, detention (that day after school - if it inconveniences parents well raise your kids they don't misbehave then!), even litter collecting or helping at lunch in canteen. It's gone WAY too far the other way and it doesn't serve the children either. In the real world shitty behaviour has consequences - I even see it on here occasionally mners posting complaining about being disciplined/sacked when THEY have behaved appallingly.

"most of all no punishment at home if they do misbehave at school." So true!

"Divorce. Sorry. No one likes to say it but it traumatises young minds at a subconscious level even if they seem fine." Totally agree and I'm a divorcee. Not what I planned for my child at all and I've tried to mitigate the harm as much as possible. I'll also be flamed but - people rushing into parenthood too. I don't even mean young parents necessarily but see on these boards repeatedly women who meet, move in with someone and get pregnant very quickly before the honeymoon phase is even past - and then wonder why it goes tits up! Now in my case it didn't work (together a few years before marrying, married, dd 5 years into marriage) but generally speaking people who wait and see if they're really compatible before having children are more likely to stay together and co-parent well.

"Parents who are friends vs parents who are kind and firm but definitely the parents." Yes. For where I live I'm an older mum. I was also stricter which at the time dd hated and I occasionally got "why can't you be more like x's mum? She lets her do [insert thing like hell was dd doing!] X says they're more like friends than mum & dd" to which I said "you've loads of friends you only have one mum. I'm here to be your mum not your mate!" She's now almost 18 and says she's glad now I was like that. The x's are now finding it very hard to navigate life outside school and their parents suddenly clamping down on them.

"Silence and routine help a lot of children." Totally agree. I've been looking after other people's children since I was 14. I've found most children prefer quiet calm environments for the most part. Yes they need to cut loose at points too but most of the time high sensory input just makes them anxious.

"The amount of sugar in our food and drink. Its not unusual for young people to come to school drinking energy drinks" not sure I agree with this I'm a 70's born and my generation ate a LOT of sugar and didn't behave like this. Also "sugar high" has been disproved BUT I do think we will learn possibly in the near future the real harm of certain additives - ones in energy drinks are already known and in other countries they're either completely banned or adult only. It's not just the effect on brains, they're known to be dangerous for the heart and stomachs too.

Wishiwasanastronaut - I think the opposite is true - modernisation for the sake of change and no other reason. Teachers have to teach to the exam now whereas in the past it was to instil a love of learning and encourage critical thinking. Call me paranoid but I certainly think the current govt doesn't WANT kids being taught how to learn, how to question, not to accept "facts" without questioning the source or the agenda of that source. Instead overloading teachers and pupils with so much to be learnt by rote without a real knowledge of the subjects that they are then less capable of questioning their agendas.

Imip - I think there's too much emphasis on academic achievement. And I say that as an academic person who that type of education suits. We have massively devalued practical achievement/skills. I have relatives & friends (well more friends kids) who are not academic but are incredibly talented in other areas and who struggle to find the training/job opportunities to use those skills. The jobs require qualifications in the skills, I've heard it's not the employers demanding this but their insurers! People with not a clue how these jobs are done! There aren't enough apprenticeships either. When I was at school practical subjects had benefits for both types of students - it gave the students who were good at practical things a subject possibly more than one that they excelled in and could take pride in - and it humbled the academic ones! Does them no harm to learn they can't be good at everything and that others have talents they can admire without having themselves. It's also a break from the academic subjects. I was rubbish at pe, needlework, art, tech drawing - but it was good for me to give my left brain a break and develop my right brain more and also get me exercising and burning up nervous energy. Even though I was crap at them I loved all but pe, I loved not worrying about doing well cos I knew I wouldn't anyway, but I was still rewarded for effort (I still tried to do a good job) and it was fun! And drama was a subject I was good at that wasn't about me being a brainiac and allowed me to make friends I otherwise wouldn't have, to express myself in a way I was otherwise too shy to. There were other pupils too who it was the only thing they were good at - every child deserves a subject they can excel at.

Aragog - Jesus that says it all when prison workers are safer than teachers!

It sounds to me as if streaming by ability has gone by the wayside too? When I was at school we were streamed this meant the most disruptive pupils were in the lower streamed classes. This did not include pupils with Sen who were in separate classes and weren't the most severely affected in this way. There were more schools for those with Sen then too and frankly (might get flamed for this) while inclusion might seem a nice idea it actually fails both the students with severe Sen and the students without because the powers that be haven't provided the right or enough support for this to be properly managed.

All of that said - my bright, high achieving, anxious, disabled child was massively let down by her school.

ginghamstarfish · 06/12/2018 22:51

Well, schools are not allowed to discipline kids, the kids know their 'rights' and there's little respect for elders. Wouldn't teach in a school here for anything. I used to teach high school in another country - the kids all stood up when a teacher entered the room, greeted the teacher, raised their hands to speak and were generally lovely. If there was an incident with two students talking together, the others would all shush them. They appreciated their education and wanted to make the most of it, of course also helped by the fact that they were brought up to respect their elders, and teachers in particular.

StepAwayFromGoogle · 06/12/2018 22:53

Is private education better? My Aunt is a teacher and she basically sat me down recently and begged me to send my DDs to private secondary. She said teacher/pupil ratios are much better and teaching is not disrupted by the horrendous behaviour of a few pupils. I've always been against private education but reading this thread I'm thinking I need to start saving. Now.

malificent7 · 06/12/2018 22:53

Ive juat left to retrain. Dont miss it at all. What compounds it as that i couldnt get a permanent contract anyway....many zero hour contracts in education nowadays ..

malificent7 · 06/12/2018 22:54

I taught in private...it was worse for behaviour than the comp...i was filmed in lessons...management did nada...

Dodgeduckdivedodge · 06/12/2018 23:04

Reading this breaks my heart for teachers suffering what can only be described as hell in some situations. More and often often these threads are coming up and we hear how teachers and schools are on their knees. It's made me incredibly grateful I fiund home education. So glad.

ScrantonTheElectricCity · 06/12/2018 23:04

I work in a school, only yesterday went passed a group of year 8 boys simulating anal sex on each other. I feel so sorry for the kids today, they know things at such a young age that they shouldn't and, in my opinion, cant mentally cope with. My ds was saying today how jealous he is that he wasnt born when his dad and I were, going out to play football and stuff in relative safety.
It has opened my eyes to things so much. A huge percentage of the kids I see on the low level disruption list are from 2 parent families, not the opinion most people have that feral kids are from single mums on a council estate (of which I am one). Some kids are ruined before they can even begin.
The programme School is giving a really fair view of the reality from what I see.

lljkk · 06/12/2018 23:05

It was feral madhouse when I was a kid (not in England). tbh ,I think it's a lot better in English schools now.

SantaClauseMightWork · 06/12/2018 23:08

This breaks my heart OP. You teachers are such heroes.
I can’t change anything for you but I promise that when my DCs are in secondary, I will make sure that they respect teachers. I will also make absolutely sure there are consequences at home if they don’t do that. I wish you all the best. Flowers

Shriek · 06/12/2018 23:11

What a depressing thread. I would never work in a school because teachers are frontline and sandwiched between sometime shit parents and heads, confirming to syllabus

And school fails a lot of children very badly, exactly because of this, the shitty ones derailing the whole lesson.

At the end of the day it doesn't work for all, and never has. Forcing children through such a structured 'talked at' style of delivery is going to switch a lot off, but with such huge classes?!?

One of mine, had a whole year off due to a massive injury. I already wasn't impressed with certain aspects of the school, and particularly this teacher who tried to threaten me, as it I could have got DC into school and I was lying, told me straight that dc would be expected to increase a whole level or two in the year and was going to fall back. DC was coerced, literally, into taking sats, and had made two full level increases pretty much across the board. I did want work sent home, they sent very little and teacher didn't engage particularly.

There were a few spectacularly shit teachers at the school and she was one of them, so far up her own arse and so unprofessional (kids always moaning about her no eating no drinking rules whilst always drinking coke in front of them and eating whatever, including crisps and chocs, and then having affair with pe teacher.

I have no time for parents who argue with teachers to undermine their discipline. It is shit parents who swear at teachers, and all teacher to parent calls should be recorded as a record of anti school behaviour as evidence to back up teachers against shit behaviours from kids and parents that can then be fined for.

Its insufferable taking abuse from kids or parents and should be zero tolerance, police can have that with zero tolerance on drinking outside, or abuse to them. Same with hospital staff.

The level of abuse in schools is just reflective of the level of abuse out if schools in general.

Even sitting waiting in my car minding my own business I have to listen to the most disgusting prejudiced language.

I wouldn't teach kids for anything, you have to really want to work with kids, bit like being a GP some are actually shit at patient interaction just because they want the money and status of being a GP. Unfortunately many of them seem to get to live quite affluently on part time wage!

No teacher should have to tolerate abuse.

GerrysSuccessor · 06/12/2018 23:51

I always feel the need to come onto these threads to say: secondary school teacher here, been in the job for 11 years, and absolutely love it. Love my school, love the kids. I’m sure there are others like me out there. You need to find the right school! That’s not to say behaviour isn’t a challenge sometimes and workload isn’t high but I’ve definitely seen those two things move in the right direction not the wrong one since I’ve been teaching.

Just for balance!

Shriek · 06/12/2018 23:59

Good to see this balance on here. I know of some great schools who manage discipline very well, but clearly theres a large element out there if parents with foum behaviours supporting kids foul behaviours...what do your school do with them?

Justlikedevon · 07/12/2018 00:05

The area I teach in has become a 'gang postcode' area. There are disenchanted 11 year olds carrying knives for 'safety' and huge gang fights both in and out of school. Girls get routinely raped as 'punishment'. It's utterly terrifying.

Shitgovernmentshitparents · 07/12/2018 00:11

I've been teaching in a secondary school for over 20 years. Problem is 50% shit parenting and 50% cuts to education.

The difference is special schools/secure units/support staff have all been closed/cut/don't exist. Inclusion in practice means that troubled children or those with any sort of learning difficulty are in classes of 20 or 30 with no support at all. If they can't read or control their emotions of course they will behave badly. Sure differentiation is a thing but it can't fix a class where 1/4 of the children in there need some additional support which doesn't exist. Sometimes there are classes where I never properly learn the names of the nice, quiet kids who are getting on with their work because I spend most of the time with those who can't read or write or who are crawling around under a desk because no one gave them their Ritalin at break or who are shouting abuse at each other. SLT intervention usually means they 'counsel' the pupils and 5 minutes later they are back in class or the child tells the member of SLT to fuck off and I am left wishing I hadn't bothered.

And I'm not joking about the reading or writing. Well over 1/3 of the children who start at the school I work in has a reading age of 10 or lower and a significant minority have a reading age of 6 or less. At secondary school. We have 3 learning support teachers and 4 pupil support assistants for 1000 pupils.

I've had parents who refuse to allow us to set detentions. Parents who SLT are scared to phone or have in. Parents that we need a police officer to be present when they do come in. The local authority refuse to allow us to expel pupils (even the one that sexually assaulted a member of staff). Suspension is a day at most and is seen as a 'good skive'.

I've been told to fuck off by parents when phoning home about incomplete coursework. I've been told that they can't make their child get up in the morning for school so I can fuck right off with punishing them for repeated lateness.
Too many parents can't be bothered/don't have time/can't read themselves to bother teaching their children the basics.

You hear people outraged when its suggested that children should be toilet trained before they start school. Jesus Christ of course they should, teachers didn't do a degree so they could change your 6yr olds nappy because it was too much effort to toilet train them yourself. 20 years ago children weren't accepted at nursery at 3yrs old unless they were toilet trained or had a letter from a doctor. Somehow almost every single child was toilet trained.
Yes of course some children have an actual medical issue but large amounts of parents just can't be arsed to do it themselves.

Children come to school unable to tie their own shoe laces (velcro anyone?)
Children come to school with no idea how to use a fork and knife. They can't tell the time. And this is secondary level.
Basic basic life skills.
Yet teachers are shit as we can't teach them French/History/whatever when they can't actually spell their own name in English. Naturally when they can't actually access the lesson and have no support to do so they will act up, and it will get worse the longer they have to sit in classes feeling like they are stupid.

The difference is that these children used to get support. Either in class, or in a learning support base or in a special school. They weren't simply shoved in a class of 30 and forgotten.
The difference is that when you phoned home the parents supported the school by and large.
The difference is that suspension/expulsion were drastic punishments to be feared. Suspension is now just a holiday and expulsion is pretty much banned.

Now we have 14 yr olds with 20% attendance and a parent who can't be arsed to come to the meetings about it and doesn't care about the court case that will ensue (and take so long to get to court the child will be 16 and the case will be dropped).
Equally bad are the ones who are on their computer or phone or console til 4am and then fall asleep in class (if they make it in at all) and the parental response will be well I cant make them go to bed'.
As for all the bollocks about free thinking and so on, results and behaviour were infinitely better when pupils were directly taught rather than larking about with active learning and carousel activities and shoulder partners and peer assessment and actually writing notes is seen as a BAD THING. Give them a printout SLT cries - with what budget can I print out all these notes? And on what planet is any teenager going to sit and read them all. What are they supposed to revise from???
I love teaching but if I knew what the profession would turn into I would have done something else. Unfortunately after 21 years I fear it's too late to change career so I am hanging on for dear life at the moment.

Tiredteacherlass · 07/12/2018 00:15

I've just read the comments here. To my fellow teachers who are facing similar struggles I salute you.
I love my job, love my subject. I never wanted to be anything else.
I never thought for a minute I would be called a slab.. .or a bitch...or an ugly cow. I want to let those of you who aren't teachers know that I'm not a shouter...i always treat the kids with respect... but ask them to put their phone away and I'm an ugly cow etc
I have classes that I get on great with but there are a few in the week who are just running wild. I have had boys make sexual gestures in class or used foul language. Report it and nothing is done. We aren't allowed to give punishments anymore... restorative practice is the new thing. We are meant to have restorative chats with the kids who call us names. They'll make a half hearted apology and we have to cheerfully accept it or we are accused of not developing positive relationships.

I don't even mind the paper work... it's the behaviour that's killing it.
Oh and to those who say we have 13 weeks holiday... fuck of and suck my boaby. And if you don't like that well tough because I have rights you know😁

OP posts:
Disquieted1 · 07/12/2018 00:26

I expect to get flamed for this but here goes:
As a school governor for many years, I've seen too many teachers who have never left the academic world. They went from school to sixth form to university to teacher training college then straight back into the classroom. They have never left the academic world and have never developed the other skills necessary to thrive in a wider environment.

Getting some people with skills in industry or business, experienced in managing teams, projects and big issues giving something back and going into teaching would be a game-changer. But alas it won't happen on a large scale.

This is not to say that it's all the fault of inadequate teachers. They all too often have a terribly tough job and little support, especially from parents.

Shriek · 07/12/2018 00:36

There seem to be simply higher levels of shit ppl with equally shit kids!!

I want to cry at the state of affairs where young girls get routinely rape punished. Fucking sick shits need locking up. WTAF!

Shitgovernmentshitparents · 07/12/2018 01:05

@disquieted1. They actually did that in NE Scotland. When the oil downturn happened there was a huge drive and a large 'golden hello' for oil workers to retrain as teachers. What actually happened was less than 1/3 stayed on the course to complete it and I think maybe 1 or 2 were still teaching after a year. Out of over 30 who started initially. These were people who were execs, engineers, business managers, software engineers etc. the ones I met were horrified at the working conditions, long hours for shit pay, the way the authority was actively obstructive when schools tried to deal with very difficult children and the behaviour of the pupils. Some said they were sworn at more on a 6 week school placement than they had been in years of working on the rigs.