Aibu to think most people have no idea what it's like being a secondary teacher.

[Tiredteacherlass]

I believe that most people have no idea how bad behaviour is and how most schools have feral children and no real means of control.

I'm fed up. the shouting, the filthy language, the name calling, the drugs, the absolute lack of slt support.

I am trying to think of ways so that I don't have to go back after Mat leave. Thinking about it gives me the absolute fears.

LloydColeandtheCoconuts, we home educated our own kids up to 16, so I already knew some home ed families. They put a link to my first course on HE Facebook groups and it took off from there.

While we were home edding ourselves, I only worked 2 days a week but the hours were getting insane.

I also think the lack of norms in society everyone tries to aspire to is incredibly damaging. Everything is about info individuality these days thing aren’t seem as black and white, right and wrong, normal and abnormal, kids need clear boundaries from an early age, it makes them feel safe a secure, a base which to return to when they start to explore a little beyond those boundaries. As unpopular as it might be, parents splitting up often acrimoniously, children passed between parents, often with conflicting ways of raising children, being blended into new families who live life differently all means a lack of consistency which kids need (I’m aware some families manage this well but I think they are a minority). Kids are also kept by parents who 50 years ago wooldnt have been able to keep them as everyone bends over backwards to let kids stay with often inadequate birth mums for far too long.

I know what it's like - I've been told about it by two relatives, both of whom have thrown in the towel recently.

WishIwasanastronaut couldn't disagree more. We spend so much time nurturing and caring and understanding the little bastards, that they have no respect for any kind of authority whatsoever.

Right from the beginning we need to instil good manners, courtesy, politeness and consideration for others, and that is supposed to start before they even get to school.

It isn't school that's broken, it is parenting.

I think the parents of the decent children who behave most of the time DO know and are as sick of the behaviour issues as the teachers are.
I have a child with special needs and sensory issues who constantly complains about behaviour and noise in her classes.

This^

Sick of my DD being teased and ostracised for her social awkwardness which is really just down to the fact that she is surrounded by a lot of shitty kids who scare her. Sick of my DS with HFASD struggling with the noise in classrooms.

Not sure what can be done - this is a "good" school and the staff try their best.

Sorry bold fail!

However, I'd add that teachers don't know what anyone else's job is like either.

And that's what friends some people's gears, the way in which some teachers (not all) think they think they are uniquely badly treated and overworked. I say this as the offspring of two teachers and the close friend of several more.

Only an idiot would think that teachers work 9-3 and do nothing in the holidays, but overwork, lack of support, lack of resources and impossible targets are the norm, in many parts of the public sector. It certainly is in HE.

Last year I worked 7 days a week, every day between September and July (barring strike days) and worked past midnight at least twice a week. I would also sleep in the office quite regularly as it wasn't worth going home. Like a lot of early career university teachers, I was caught between a bullying management team, too few staff and students encouraged to have unrealistically high expectations given the resources available (not their fault, but it was those of us on the front line who got hammered).

And there is no job security, with 9 or 10 month contracts the norm and the expectations that we will move to the other end of the country for a not fantastically temporary or paid exploitative temp job, in the interest of 'career development'.

However o wouldn't claim to junior academics are uniquely badly treated or have it harder than anyone else. Rather that along with nurses, teachers, social workers and junior doctors we are ruthlessly overworked and taken advantage of and our sense of responsibility to the people we work with is exploited by those in charge.

I do

'It isn't school that's broken, it is parenting.'

Completely agree. I work with under 5s (NHS) and I shudder to think what behaviour must be like in secondary school. So much neglectful parenting - no boundaries, no routine, no rules, child gets everything they want at the slightest whinge. Children who slap and kick parents and the parents just take it. Children who cannot cope with being expected to follow an adult's lead, because it never happens at home. Children who get handed a screen every time they show a hint of any inconvdnient emotions. Parents who seem totally disconnected from their children. It depresses the hell out of me

Support staff in an outstanding secondary in very wealthy London suburb here.

Agree with the cartoon up thread. At our school all the blame goes on the teacher, not the student. Little Jonny gets predicted a C based on the teachers extensive experience and they get direct emails from parents complaining about the poor teaching instead of making little Jonny do his bloody homework for once.

Teacher then spends an hour dealing with little Jonny’s parents as well as teaching all day as they’ve had to take on more teaching time to cover budget cuts, lesson prep, marking, book scrutiny, department meetings, amending schemes of work to new curriculums, getting their head around new exam styles and headings, detentions, running various clubs, playground duty, lunch duty, cover, revision sessions...the pressure is relentless and comes from all sides, from senior management, students and parents. Most teachers are on a manic treadmill from 7.30am to 3.30pm and then have a couple of hours of calmer time to catch up after the students have gone home.

I think the lack of older teachers is a problem too. New recruits come in naturally eager to do well and take on all the shit as if it’s normal then burn out in five years. Older teachers tend to push back more against pointless admin and they cost more because of their experience so schools like new recruits, cheap and more biddable. Generally speaking behaviour tends to be worse for new teachers because they haven’t had the chance to perfect their teacher ‘presence’ so behaviour goes downhill.

I went into working on a school thinking I’d do a pgce at some point but I wouldn’t do it for all the money in the world. As it is my support staff hourly rate probably works out higher than most teachers because I don’t do the many many extra hours that they have to put in to keep things going.

I don’t know what the answer is. It’s very worrying.

onceandneveragain that just wouldn’t work. You need a huge knowledge base to be able to think critically. Knowledge is important, you can’t just rely on google, for lots of reasons.

I'm going to go against the grain here.

The vast majority of students are lovely and we'll behaved. The vast majority of students want to learn. The vast majority of parents want to support school and want their children to learn. The vast majority of the time parents and teachers can work together in a really positive way.

What has happened in recent years is the size of the loud minority has grown. Some schools have held their line and not pandered to it. In other schools the loud minority (on a national scale) are concentrated in one school and there's a culture of disrespect, verbal abuse, poor work ethic etc.

It's like on MN. You don't get threads of people who are happily supporting school, raising issues reasonably etc. You tend not to get the pile on mob mentality with otherwise reasonable parents. You do get the pile on with statements like 'well I told my DC They don't have to go to detention.. I can't believe they ended up in isolation for having their shirt untucked!!! and the associated disruption and arguing and rudeness to staff I teach my child to be questioning and to challenge authority teach them they can behave how they like because they are so much better than any other child I don't encourage blind obedience I enable and encourage my child to break rules and then undermine the school but bet your bottom dollar I'll be blaming school if and when their GCSE results aren't looking good etc'. See also MN posters who advocate rules and sanctions and praise tend to get the usual 'omg I'm so glad you're never going to teach my child...' or where you can tell a parent didn't do well at school themself/disliked school so is quite anti school and confrontational in their approach

The majority are still a delight to teach and funny, charismatic, personable, quirky, shy, confident, sporty, musical, engaged etc. It's just the minority have been enabled to be louder

Totally agree with @gazilion and their suggestions.

My biggest bus this. League vtanles based on academic results have to go. It's forcing kids who aren't suited into the courses, and making schools into exam only factories.

Taking league tables away would make schools more rounded. Allow, over time, kids who weren't suited to do trades part time, teach life skills etc without the constant pressure of achieving 5 grade 4+ for every kid, even though 2 in the year group can hardly spell their name.

The system had to change, but that comes from the accountability measures.

I teach secondary. It's marvellous when it goes well. It's bloody hard work though. I've been told to effectively off by eleven year old this week....no other job allows this for their staff.

Parents don’t discipline their children. I’m from a south Asian background and I even I could tell a difference in primary school. They way the children spoke and talked back to the teachers were awful. Some parents (not saying all) over here don’t seem to care about their children’s education. Where as in other cultures it’s taken more seriously.

Sorry for typos. Parents evening til 8.... knackered!!

Friends who transferred from other professions into teaching seem to cope better than the ones who have done nothing else. The friend who was a bank manager says teaching maths at secondary is easier and she appreciates the holidays more having not had them.

My children found them the better teachers.

I found these teachers more mature and easier to deal with also less into power and control.

I agree with @WishIwasanastronaut - school is a ludicrous way for children and young people to spend 15 years of their life.

Does anyone wonder why a strapping 16 year old doesn't want to sit and stare at an adult lecturing to him in silence for hours every single day ?

Yes the behaviour is appalling and I massively respect teachers - but our energetic beautiful children enter the system and begin to have play and creativity removed day by day from the age of 5.

They aren't taught to be self sufficient, they aren't allowed to learn through play after they turn about 5 - it's tragic. Of course once they are teens they would rather be out in the real world.

I think it's insane that they have to be in education until 18. Absolutely bonkers.

School should start about three years later and end about 4 years earlier with an enormous shift to on the job training and apprenticeships - while those who are more into formal learning and academia could stay at school out of choice. Imagine how different the atmosphere would be.

A lot of the blame lies with feckless and ignorant parents who should never have had children in the first place.

None of the high schools in my area are like this. I’m a secondary teacher and whilst I have been sworn at before, my school have an excellent behaviour system in place. I like the kids. They can be stroppy and hormonal but most of them will tow the line. It is utterly exhausting as i have to be constantly on at them and have extremely high expectations but they respond to that.
All of the doom and gloom does not represent all schools. And mine is an RI school, not outstanding.

FFS this thread is a shit reflection on teachers and on education

School is boring from about year 2 onwards. Bring back drama, art, painting - my son is six I can't remeber when he last did any painting or just messing around with junk modelling or anything playful.

Even his art lessons are very strictly dictated to a 'topic'. Great learning but god let them be the little kids they are. Let them build things in a wood, climb trees, learn how to empathise with others through play.

We are taking our children and telling them that the main aim of childhood is passing exams - so that they can spend their teenage years passing more exams - it's actually tragic what we have done to childhood in this country.

Would you honestly be okay with your teenager speaking to a teacher like that?

I taught my children manners, no matter the age, sex or occupation of other people. I also taught them to not accept bad behaviour from others. My children were never in trouble at school. I had a show down once with staff, they weren't doing their job properly and were very ashamed.

they aren't allowed to learn through play after they turn about 5

Again, I started off in primary and I haven’t worked in a primary school where learning through play was cut off at age 5. Things were more formal by yr3 but not reception!

This is why I support grammar schools. Poor, smart kids can't achieve in these environments. They haven't got a chance in hell

Couldn't agree more. I might not agree in theory, but am so grateful that all my 4 have been to/are at grammar schools.

I work in a inner city primary school as a TA (have done for 16 years) but honestly the behaviour has deteriorated at a rapid rate the last few years, I have been called a cunt, punched, kicked and bitten amongst other things. All for just under 15 grand a year. I can't do it anymore so I certainly can understand why teachers can't. Sad as I used to enjoy my job.

Respect for teachers should begin at home. You can tell what the parents are like from the way the kids talk to teachers.