Aibu to think most people have no idea what it's like being a secondary teacher.

[Tiredteacherlass]

I believe that most people have no idea how bad behaviour is and how most schools have feral children and no real means of control.

I'm fed up. the shouting, the filthy language, the name calling, the drugs, the absolute lack of slt support.

She's now at 6th form college and says that apparently itislike that at some of the other equally boringly normal schools in the area. Not clear why things differ so sharply across a few miles in one county

Yes I have to confess to wondering wtf happens

Round here I think all the primary schools are now rated "good"
Possibly even a couple "outstanding"

Which unless they send all these kids home on Ofsted day I'd assume they wouldn't get ifbthe behaviour was that bad.

Now these kids pretty much "start" as soon as they get there so how can it be so much down to teachers when they just had 6 weeks at home and brought the trouble with them.

The secondary schools round here are either RI or inadequate. The better schools on the outskirts you have no hope getting into.

So how do you go from reasonable ok, to the bullying, assults, racism, knives, smoking etc in such a short space of time.

Makes no sense.

We chose ds's secondary exactly because it was super-strict (not ready to learn super-strict w silent corridors but v old fashioned, no phones etc). The weird thing is that, because it is so strict its actually very calm and in a funny way relaxed. Because there is no tolerance of messing about the teachers dont need to be strict and shouty all the time and the school will make sensible adjustments to their discipline policy to take account of individual circumstances eg uniform is strictly enforced but cheap and sensible and if you lose your tie or a shoe breaks you can get a pass that gives you a few days to get it replaced before detentions start.

"Also, I find that a lot of the most badly behaved students tend to come from the bigger families (5+ kids) and I think the parents attention is just too divided. Especially in the case of a student I dealt with today. He's in GCSE year and mom has a newborn, and 4 others in between. She just doesn't have the time for them all and the older ones get left to fend for themselves."

I went to school in Ireland at a time when the average family size here would have been 5-7 children, and some people in my school came from families of ten or more. They certainly weren't the worst behaved children and wouldn't have dreamt of behaving remotely like some of the kids being described here.
I don't think family size has anything to do with it, unless it's a case of multiple children with multiple fathers in which case it's down to a fragmented home background and not family size.

My dd has sensory issues and hates shouting. It makes her very upset and makes her jump.
The kids who are being shouted at generally don't give a shit tbh.

BarbarianMum
You could be talking about my school.
It's a strict school with high expectations. We have clear rules and enforce them firmly and fairly so everyone can learn and feel safe at school.
I really enjoy working in such a warm and caring environment. Because I don't spend most of my day managing poor behaviour and disruption, I can get to know the students as individuals, we can go off on tangents in the lesson and it's really enjoyable. Because I'm not having to have regular negative conversations, I can have loads of positive interactions with students. I thank them for being polite and friendly, they thank me at the end of the lesson. P5 today every single child wished me a lovely weekend or said thank you.
It's not perfect and there's still classroom management but the ethos is brilliant. It wouldn't go down well with some on here though because we do class refusing to wear school uniform as defiance and most staff pick up on low level disruption (stupid name as it's not a small issue when it builds up).

I’m really wondering what a teacher’s views on patriarchy have to do with whether or not they’re a good teacher. I’ve discussed patriarchal societies with classes as a part of English literature - ie when discussing Lady Macbeth as a character who subverts the patriarchal norms and it’s a really interesting, engaging topic of conversation.

I also spend all my summer holidays away. Lesson planning has to adapt as you teach; you can’t get all your planning out of the way in one holiday and not have to do any more!

Way upthread, I saw the oft-repeated refrain of the idiot wrt teachers who only want ‘power and control’. If you’re into power and control, you don’t go into teaching, I promise! I have no dictatorial ambitions - students need to follow my instructions to help them make progress, not to indulge some strange megalomaniac dreams I am harbouring! I don’t know any teachers who get a kick out of control - but part of the job is definitely to keep our classes under control.

If I had smaller classes and more LSAs, my job would be a dream. Better support for SEN and less spreading myself too thin to be effective. 90% of my issues would be solved. But it all comes down to money. Given how vital education is, you’d think it would be a priority in govt spending but it isn’t. I’ve run out of exercise books and glue in a big MAT - that shouldn’t be happening. The money should go towards supporting student learning.

I worry about sending my children to high school. The swearing and violence isn’t something I want them exposed to. I love the job, even eleven years in, though I go through phases of wondering if I can stand it any longer! But I don’t think secondary schools are working the way they could and should and it’s massively frustrating.

The sad thing for me is that my school used to have very low tolerance for bad behaviour. Staff were supported and parents were supportive.

Despite being in a very deprived area with the 'worst' results, staff always wanted to stay and the average age of teachers was about 40 or older.
What changed is our head teacher moved on and we got a new, inexperienced early 30's HT in his first job as head (with just 2 years experience as SLT). It took less than a year for staff to start leaving. With teacher shortages as bad as they are there are hundreds of jobs to go to.

Staff were no longer supported - "Are you sure he told you to fuck off? maybe if he was looking at the floor it wasn't directed at you? I don't think we'll punish this time as it might have been misinterpreted...'
Two kids having a fist fight in the corridor, one ended up with a black eye - 'well you might not have seen clearly what started it or who hit who so I think we won't exclude on this occasion' WTF! One of them had a BLACK EYE! Sadly our parent's aren't the sort to complain often (poor literacy skills, low confidence etc).

Our entire SLT has left and has been replaced with the next bright young things with zero experience and zero authority.
Over half the staff have left and been replaced with NQTs or supply - again all bright young things with no experience and little authority, and now little support from SLT to help them develop those skills. When the staff went to the union they were told that the union had met with the education officers who told them there was 'no requirement for staff to be happy'... the union told them 'there's also no requirement for staff to stay'.
And therein lies the rub - these kids need support, they need continuity, they need experienced staff and with a merry-go-round of supply staff and NQTs the behaviour tanked, parents have no respect for management and staff are still leaving. I don't even know half the people in the staffroom now or bother to learn their names as they often only stay a month or two.

They stopped doing the announcements of staff leaving and presenting a card and flowers after one last day of term had 15 staff leaving on the same day and it took half an hour to get through them all.

This is why we send ours private. It's not about better outcomes, it's about a better quality of life for our kids.

Good for you BlueBertie. Very helpful . I’m sure we would ALL love to be able to give our kids “a better quality of life”. Sadly this is not an option available to all.

Genuine question here - what’s changed in 20 years with behaviour?

Over the last couple of decades not only are schools having to deal with poor behaviour with no sanctions, they now have the appalling lack of parental support, as often seen on this site, their child can do no wrong, it must be the school. I'll go to the papers and get my saddo face on the website, I know that the school is not allowed to give their side of the story and it is almost always not what the parent is saying.
There is an almost perfect inverse correlation between those who complain most about trivial things and their child's attainment.

When my brother came home complaining about a punishment Dad's first words were 'What did you do to get punished?' Bro, 'Nowt'. Dad, 'What should you have been doing?' No question of storming down to school and demanding to see the Head!

Feel so sad reading this thread, and very lucky. 22 years in state schools and last year nearly broke me, both mentally and physically. Moved to an independent school stepped down from leadership, and my faith has been restored. Have not been sworn at all term and absolutely love my job all over again. Lucky, very lucky.

I actually can't cope with reading all the threads on MN questioning the teacher or schools decisions. It makes the job and having any kind of authority impossible!

Ex primary teacher- that was bad enough.

But ds14 has got into trouble a few times, namely a small scuffle with another boy and having his phone taking off him when it when off in class.

The first example, the HOY phoned and said they’d be given a lunchtime dentition, but she wasn’t worried about it as it was more the boys finding their feet (Y7), and she told them how disappointed us parents would be. So that was the route we went down at home.

Second time with the phone he couldn’t get it back as the teacher was in a meeting. My reply was rough luck it’s your own fault.

I personally blame the parents for the lack of respect children show. As you can see mines not an angel, but he wouldn’t dare answer back etc to teachers and is always commented on for his manners. He as respect for other people.

I must admit it is a very good school, over subscribed, good results etc. I would say 1/4 of the catchment is well off, and has a lower amount of children from disadvantaged families (that includes us now I am disabled and on benefits so no offence meant to anyone).

I do loads of play stuff with my kids and I teach secondary history. They work hard because they know they'll get rewarded with fun eg outside acting out historical events, writing their own role plays, filming, creating comic strips or iMovies. Today my year 11s made a stack of revision cards while singing along to Christmas music. Sometimes they had a wee dance. I don't mind. They're working hard, they need it.

I am definitely VERY lucky in my job. I absolutely love it and love the kids despite the challenges they bring. They do need fun, and I'm lucky my school lets me provide it. Every day I go in, I feel privileged.

Before I get criticised, I don't do this every lesson. Then again, history is pretty hard to make dull unless you're shite. Missiles! Monarchs! Murder! Jewellery!

tillytrotter1 - patenting has changed. Kids today are the centre of the family —universe— I hear of mums going without the basics to buy not necessities but luxury designer goods, cos it’s all about the baby isn’t it —baby is usually 9– This crowning if the prince and princess you see absolutely everywhere does them no good when they land in my office for their first day at work they quickly realise they are nothing special but they shouldn’t have to learn that at 18. It’s sad because we also get kids that have been booted out the door at 16 when the parents no longer get benefits for them, so they go from being on a pedastool to not even able to live at home.

I blame the parents, respect, right & wrong are learned at home. School is for learning reading writing etc

Parents have always been a pita when teaching. Ive had a few corkers...' dd says your picking on her etc...' er ....yes if she is constantly talking, i constantly have to tell her off for talking.
People are scared of their own kids nowadays...i dont blame parents completely...as a society we have gone from vwing a nation of child abusers to a nation of mollycoddlers producing a generation of brats. Where is the happy medium?

Speak for yourself Malificent blimey!!

Some kids are brats that's for sure. How would it be if someone said teachers are pita!!! Nice attack on ALL parents.

Because there is no tolerance of messing about the teachers dont need to be strict and shouty all the time

So what happens when a pupil is messing about? How are they disciplined?

Well there's detention (which the parents can refuse to let the child do)
There's removing them from class temporarily (which is both frowned upon and also seen by the child as a good skive)
There's a chat with SLT (which is pointless if your SLT are spineless)
Then you can blame the teacher for not tap dancing while singing their lesson.
You can also blame the teacher for 'picking on the child'
You can even tell the teacher that they were lovely in the SLT office (with no audience to play to)
Or you could replace the teacher with supply or NQT that won't have the confidence to pursue the matter and it will be ignored.

Meanwhile the other 29 children have their education disrupted repeatedly due to the behaviour of the child.

Then you can blame the teacher for not tap dancing while singing their lesson. You can also blame the teacher for 'picking on the child'

I wish I could say that your post was unbelievable. Sadly I know it's almost certainly true.

Yanbu. I teach primary. The amount of times I keep kids in at break is unbelievable. In the past I've been kicked and swore at. Parents moaning is a big part of the problem.

I think in terms of mental health, social media has brought a whole new host of problems, which is why I do feel that things are worse for students than they were 30 years ago? It is harder to be resilient when you cannot switch off from bullying even when you get home and there really is very little teachers can do to control comments on social media, Snapchat etc.

The social media issue largely comes back to shit parenting though.
Children with Facebook, Snapchat and Instagram when they are still in primary school.

Unlimited access to the internet and mobile phones.
The sheer horror at the suggestion that you check your child's phone and social media regularly.
No enforcement of security/privacy settings.
No monitoring of internet or phone use.