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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think you can't be a "nice guy" if you use prostitutes for sex?

452 replies

NotMyOriginalName1 · 06/12/2018 14:22

Or can you?

In short, somebody I've known for a number of years openly admits to visiting sex workers and has deluded himself into believing he's one of the good guys and isn't exploitative. He spouts bullshit about having respect for the women he sees and thinks they adore his charming company.

I've lost what respect I have for him.

Unbeknownst to him I have personal experience of these situations, I was a sex worker in my late teens and what lead me there was an abusive relationship. I never felt respected by one single 'customer' in fact it was the 'good guys' who made my skin crawl the most.

Aibu to say he's an exploitative c-u-next-tuesday or am I jaded as a result my own trauma?

OP posts:
BasilFaulty · 07/12/2018 11:35

@newlevelsoftiredness well said, I always love your posts.

BertrandRussell · 07/12/2018 11:35

But there is a lot of money in the sex industry. Not for the women at the "coal face" of course. But for the makers and distributors. There is at least one such person on here.

BasilFaulty · 07/12/2018 11:37

@bertrandrussell very true. Like the eye rolling and mocking I got from the women on my team at work because I didn't want to go to Hooters. 'I thought you were a feminist?' Hmm

ReanimatedSGB · 07/12/2018 14:16

There are people among the anti-sex work/anti-porn who do have a fairly pathological attitude towards sex in general: their motivation appears to be to ensure that other people have as little sex as possible, and rarely enjoy it (because pleasure is both disgusting and unnecessary.) These are the ones whose attitudes towards sex workers are punitive, contemptuous or patronizing - if the sex worker accepts the role of victim she needs to be grateful and obedient towards those rescuing her, and denounce her former friends; if she explains that she is content with her job and concerned only by the new laws which are a threat to her safety/wellbeing and that of her friends, she gets called a liar, an enemy of women, deluded, an exception to the 'rule' that No Decent Woman Could Do That Stuff, etc.

The current 'sex trafficking' obsessions of anti-sex work organisations are doing a lot of harm, too. They seem to have translated into a new way for the authorities to harass sex workers and confiscate their earnings - very few sex workers are found to be victims of trafficking when brothels are raided.

Yet the plight of people who are trafficked to work in agriculture, catering, cleaning, construction etc doesn't seem to get anything like as much attention and support.

NottonightJosepheen · 07/12/2018 14:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LassWiADelicateAir · 07/12/2018 14:48

There are people among the anti-sex work/anti-porn who do have a fairly pathological attitude towards sex in general: their motivation appears to be to ensure that other people have as little sex as possible, and rarely enjoy it (because pleasure is both disgusting and unnecessary.) These are the ones whose attitudes towards sex workers are punitive, contemptuous or patronizing

Oh look a mind reader. It's a very convenient lie isn't it? Being anti- prostitution = being anti- sex and anti- fun and anti-pleasure. It's a pile of steaming horse manure really.

How anyone could read the multiple accounts available of what life is like for prostitutes in Germany, or what brothels in Germany and New Zealand are like, and find that they are fun places to work where it is all about pleasure and enjoyment is beyond me.

LassWiADelicateAir · 07/12/2018 14:51

Yet the plight of people who are trafficked to work in agriculture, catering, cleaning, construction etc doesn't seem to get anything like as much attention and support

Well (a) yes it does and (b) no one has to waste time shooting down apologists saying but some of these people just love their job and they have such nice employers.

BoglingToAswad · 07/12/2018 14:59

Yet the plight of people who are trafficked to work in agriculture, catering, cleaning, construction etc doesn't seem to get anything like as much attention and support.

Yes, and there are more people trafficked into the UK as labour workers than in sexual slavery. Nobody seems to call for an end of the agricultural or building industries because of trafficked workers there, in those cases they understand that it is a problem which is not specific to that industry.

Oh look a mind reader

To be fair, a lot of people on here seem to think they know the innermost thoughts and motivations of men who pay for sex and women who sell it. You can't complain about someone making assumptions about your thoughts if you are making assumptions about theirs.

NottonightJosepheen · 07/12/2018 15:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 07/12/2018 15:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

53rdWay · 07/12/2018 15:33

There are a multitude of reasons men pay for sex.

Which ones are compatible with being a 'nice guy', exactly?

LassWiADelicateAir · 07/12/2018 15:42

To be fair, a lot of people on here seem to think they know the innermost thoughts and motivations of men who pay for sex

The innermost thoughts and motivation of men who pay for sex? Not terribly difficult to work out is it? You can put whatever sugar coating and candyfloss spin you want on it but basically- it's "I'm a man , I'm entitled to have sex"

There are a multitude of reasons men pay for sex

Which ones are compatible with being a 'nice guy', exactly?

That's got me stumped for sure.

BertrandRussell · 07/12/2018 15:46

There really is only one reason men pay for sex. It's because tfhy have no problem with commodifying women. There is one reason some people are OK with making money out of prostitution and porn. It's because they have no problem with commodifying women. There are many reasons women are prostitutes or work in porn. It is very rarely a free choice or to fund their PhDs or because they love sex.

Lizzie48 · 07/12/2018 16:11

This isn't really about being anti sex at all. No one here is saying anything negative about the sex workers themselves. But it's a fact that there is a lot of organised crime involved. (I recently read the story of a British girl who was trafficked into the sex industry, and ended up in the Amsterdam red light district. It's very disturbing.

What we're saying is that surely no decent man would want to have anything to do with that. Because how could he know whether the prostitute herself is willing? And if she isn't, then it's actually rape and he's paying for the privilege.

Bananasinpyjamas11 · 07/12/2018 17:29

@reanimated would you want your daughter to be a sex worker? They should have it in careers at schools for girls?! Everything you say I disagree with.

The sex worker who walked the streets where I used to live was murdered by a client.

Sex workers posting here have described how traumatic it was to be one. That they didn’t realize how vulnerable they were. That they thought it was a choice.

I’d like to actually stick up for these women. And I love sex and think it’s great.

Tazz18 · 07/12/2018 17:52

@Lizzie48

I was trafficked within the UK. The people were charged and I wasn't the only one it was happening to, with girls working in another big UK city. They were also involved in drugs, theft and many other things.

The case was handed over to the NCA as it was a trafficking case and the whole process was just horrendous.

I left the industry due to those experiences, I was selling sex while I had track marks, black eyes and when I was withdrawing. I'm clean now but could never go back to the job due to PTSD.

Those men didn't care and openly said they didn't mind the bruises. What man pays for sex when the woman is clearly distressed?! Before my experience I would have said they would have been a minority but it soon became clear I was very very wrong.

Tazz18 · 07/12/2018 17:52

Just to add I worked as an escort before being trafficked.

Bananasinpyjamas11 · 07/12/2018 18:01

@tazz sounds deeply traumatic. Very sorry you had to go through it and I hope that you are rebuilding your life. Flowers

AlaskanOilBaron · 07/12/2018 18:05

There really is only one reason men pay for sex. It's because tfhy have no problem with commodifying women

Humans are now commodified, though, with Grindr and all the rest. Everyone's got their currency - looks, youth, or money.

I agree that it's hard to imagine a nice guy having sex with a prostitute because he has no idea if she's enjoying herself, which a nice guy would probably find hard to reconcile. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be legal, though - or at least decriminalised.

Lizzie48 · 07/12/2018 18:43

@Tazz18 I'm so sorry for what you went through. I have PTSD myself for different reasons (childhood SA), and it's traumatic to cope with that. I hope you're getting the help you need. ThanksThanks

AnyFucker · 07/12/2018 18:50

When he says "nice guy" he means he doesn't give them a black eye along with his portion of semen.

Lizzie48 · 07/12/2018 19:33

@AnyFucker

When he says "nice guy" he means he doesn't give them a black eye along with his portion of semen.

Sadly I think you're completely right.

AlaskanOilBaron · 07/12/2018 21:10

When he says "nice guy" he means he doesn't give them a black eye along with his portion of semen.

I think this is probably true.

TomPinch · 08/12/2018 04:37

NZ has been mentioned a number of times on this thread. I live there.

Until 2003 brothel-keeping and contracts for the supply of sex were crimes, as were soliciting etc. So, the law was stricter than the UK but it was a dead letter; sex work and brothels were no secret. In 2003, these laws were repealed and other laws brought in to regulate the industry. Whether one classifies that as decriminalisation or legalisation is irrelevant: the distinction has no meaning in law here. It remains illegal to work or employ someone below the age of 18, brothels must be licenced, and safe sex is compulsory. Someone mentioned above whether a sex worker could be sued for breach of contract (ie, for not going through with it). The answer is of course yes, but in reality the only remedy would be a refund, just as with any contract for services. You cannot oblige a sex worker to specifically perform a contract any more than you can a painter or an accountant.

Sex workers' earning are taxable, however, they always were before: earnings don't have to be legal to be taxable, and I expect the law in the UK is the same.

The law reform was brought in while Helen Clark was PM: certainly the best PM this country has had in my life and a better one than any the UK has had in the same time. It was not a government bill, but Clark did make it known that she expected her MPs to support it (and they all did).

The reform is generally considered to have been a success, ie, it is thought to have made the profession safer and better regulated. There is no impetus to rethink this. The feminist lobby has little to say, and what it does say is that current arrangements are best for the sex workers and should therefore remain as they are. I can't recall anyone advocating a change to the Nordic model.

I believe that sex work and the adult entertainment industry is less stigmatised than in the UK. The attitude towards sex work is pragmatic rather than ideological. There is much more of an attitude that if people want to sell or buy sex, that's a fundamentally a matter for them, and that the people concerned are not obliged to uphold any wider moral standard. The feminist movement here tends to uphold individual choice more than elsewhere. In other words, the classic liberal view, one which seems to have become old-fashioned in all manner of contexts up in Europe. There are certainly very few people who would condemn a disabled man for hiring a sex worker. I think there is also a somewhat more relaxed attitude towards men who visit adult entertainment establishments. I know very few who have admitted to frequenting or working in them, but that's probably a reflection of the circles I move in.

There is less of a problem with trafficking, probably because of NZ's geographical isolation. That said, there is stigma and there is trafficking. The extent of this is hard to know. Because NZ is a small country, investigating societal trends is comparatively expensive and therefore quite piecemeal. A few years after legalisation Otago University produced a report that said trafficking wasn't a problem: however, as the report didn't survey non-English speaking sex workers, it's hard to know how that conclusion could safely be drawn, and there are recent news reports to the contrary. There are a lot of run-down "massage parlours" around and about, and I suspect the staff are from abroad and are working illegally, and probably in poor conditions.

Personally I think it's impossible to know whether legalisation has been success or not. In my view, the purpose of it was to relieve the police of the responsiblity of enforcing a dead letter, and also because the previous law didn't assist the protection of vulnerable women.

penisbeakers · 08/12/2018 06:02

Oh fuck off.

Plenty of blokes visit sexworkers for tons of reasons, yes many of them are cheating arseholes but here is a list of men who use sexworkers and aren't shits:

• Men who don't have time for a relationship and want access to sex.
• Men with disabilities who wouldn't ordinarily have a sex life because of that.
• Men who don't want a relationship, but also don't want to chance a random encounter in a pub, or hookup site, so they pay a sexworker.
• Men who have suffered abuse and need to gradually learn sexual intimacy again if that's what they want to achieve.
• This list is not exhaustive.

None of those things make someone not a nice guy. Full service sexworkers have to be sexually healthy to maintain their job, it's their livelihood. Men who pay for these services are not automatically the sleazeballs you're trying to portray. Women providing these services are not to be looked down upon. Grow up.

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